Garneau's fireside chat and PR campaign.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

This thread pretty much sums up why unity is a problem in this occupation

We have a very clear threat to the industry and yet somehow people are defending the man who tweets about toothpaste & country music while mentioning literally nothing about aviation for 9 months.

He has thousands upon thousands of unemployed aviation professionals and has been completely mute in this regard. Zero leadership, zero plan, zero clue.

His latest Xmas video was just another indication of his complete disconnect with what is happening.

Every single professional aviator should see this man as what he is. An enemy to the industry who needs to be thrown out.

We need desperately need leadership, not a self loading baggage astronaut who was lucky to be the right French guy at the right time.

[photofly]

Why do you expect a government minister to lead an industry? Did we all go communist, suddenly? He heads the regulator, that’s all.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

You were hoping because he’s a pilot he’d give you his cellphone?

Garneau is not a pilot. He was a Naval Combat System Engineer; he managed the people who fixed the guns and the RADARs. He went into space as a payload specialist; he stayed in the back of the shuttle for T/O and Landing.

He served. He still serves. That's more than most of us can say.

[DanWEC]

This thread pretty much sums up why unity is a problem in this occupation

We have a very clear threat to the industry and yet somehow people are defending the man who tweets about toothpaste & country music while mentioning literally nothing about aviation for 9 months.

He has thousands upon thousands of unemployed aviation professionals and has been completely mute in this regard. Zero leadership, zero plan, zero clue.

His latest Xmas video was just another indication of his complete disconnect with what is happening.

Every single professional aviator should see this man as what he is. An enemy to the industry who needs to be thrown out.

We need desperately need leadership, not a self loading baggage astronaut who was lucky to be the right French guy at the right time.

Well said, it's just a matter of exposure however. No offense to them, but the guys here that are oddly dissonant aren't career pilots. They'd have a different opinion if we've been sharing the same boat the last 5 years of the administration

The last 8 months notwithstanding, things have been mostly terrific due to the economy, but everything negative for the airlines has always been Garneau.

Honestly with all the activity the last few months I'd be surprised if he isn't cut loose as a liability prior to the next election. Almost 2 million votes on the table from the travel industry is a giant pot.

[CpnCrunch]

We have a very clear threat to the industry and yet somehow people are defending the man who tweets about toothpaste & country music while mentioning literally nothing about aviation for 9 months.

If you look at his twitter feed from just today you'll see two tweets about the 737, one about deicing trucks.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Marc Garneau has been spending time, and taxpayer (Yes, yours and mine.) money on a PR campaign in the last few weeks, as he clearly knows his reputation is taking a bath.

His ridiculous fireside chat about Santa, incredulously, has an aviation theme. Utterly tone deaf, and it honestly seems vindictive, a shot straight at all of us who are pressuring him. His nerve and gall are blatant.

You can't make this up, he needs to go.

Here is the FB link. Make a comment telling him what you think. And the #savecanadianavaiation hastag is good too.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?stor ... 128206560

Here's the YouTube link. Please click and hit the dislike button! Its already far, far outweighing the likes.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?fbclid=IwAR ... e=youtu.be

He has been ineffective and well sub-par since his appointment, didn't think he could get worse after the duty regulations farce.

We need to make it known that this is the wrong guy for the job. He HAS to go. Our livelyhoods, and the industry in general for decades to come absolutely depends on it.

DONE

[I WAS Birddog]

I wish I was in the room when when the "think tank" group started putting ideas together for this odd campaign;

"you know what would win voter confidence back...we get you to read a Christmas story sitting on a throne wearing in a sweater that matches your hair colour in front of a fireplace of a lovely decorated room with high ceilings!!"

"Isn't that condescending to the unemployed aviation workforce and at the very least unempathetic to the homeless?"

"What? No. You're well groomed and you'd be reading a Christmas story. It would be different if you were playing guitar, right?"

"....that has '4 more years' written ALL over it. Brilliant! Can I wear my lucky space boots!??!"

"100% for suuuure!"

[digits_]

but the guys here that are oddly dissonant aren't career pilots. They'd have a different opinion if we've been sharing the same boat the last 5 years of the administration

Wrong.

You wrote:

He's the guy almost directly responsible for whether we're working or sitting on EI, wondering how to pay our mortgages.

I ask you again: what do you want Garneau to do to fix this? If people aren't flying, there is nothing he can do. He doesn't control quarantine requirements in other countries either.

Financial aid for airlines will not affect whether you're working or on EI.

[Kejidog]

Did anyone expect anything more from a arrogant virtue signaling drama queen? Anyone who is “under” him is a weak rubber neck yes man and just as vapid. This clown (of many)has single handedly made me a dues paying conservative. After being a liberal party member. His dinner theater antics have been on display since he “performed” for his daddy’s funeral.
“Je’taim papa”

[tsgarp]

You were hoping because he’s a pilot he’d give you his cellphone?

Garneau is not a pilot. He was a Naval Combat System Engineer; he managed the people who fixed the guns and the RADARs. He went into space as a payload specialist; he stayed in the back of the shuttle for T/O and Landing.

He served. He still serves. That's more than most of us can say.

Speak for yourself.

[twa22]

but the guys here that are oddly dissonant aren't career pilots. They'd have a different opinion if we've been sharing the same boat the last 5 years of the administration

Wrong.

You wrote:

He's the guy almost directly responsible for whether we're working or sitting on EI, wondering how to pay our mortgages.

I ask you again: what do you want Garneau to do to fix this? If people aren't flying, there is nothing he can do. He doesn't control quarantine requirements in other countries either.

Financial aid for airlines will not affect whether you're working or on EI.

Digits, assuming you are a pilot, regardless of whether you work at an airline or not, what do you suggest the appropriate course of action is for the aviation industry in Canada? The same question goes to everyone else on this forum who is against, or doesn't see government aid as helping our industry

What do you all propose? I have asked this question a few times in other threads and I have never gotten a clear response from any of the naysayers

And when I say aid, I don't mean it in a monetary form necessarily, as I have stated in other threads. I have said time and time, while monetary aid is good, we need to relax quarantine measures too... Hell, even Airbus CEO recently called out Canada on their lack of aid

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bnnblo ... 8.amp.html

[tsgarp]

From Mr. Garneau’s mandate letter.

As Minister of Transport, you will continue to ensure that Canada’s transportation system supports the Government’s ambitious economic growth and job creation agenda. Canadians require a transportation system that is safe and reliable, that facilitates trade and the movement of people and goods and that is more environmentally sustainable

Letting the airlines go out of business certainly runs counter to this mandate.

[digits_]

but the guys here that are oddly dissonant aren't career pilots. They'd have a different opinion if we've been sharing the same boat the last 5 years of the administration

Wrong.

You wrote:

He's the guy almost directly responsible for whether we're working or sitting on EI, wondering how to pay our mortgages.

I ask you again: what do you want Garneau to do to fix this? If people aren't flying, there is nothing he can do. He doesn't control quarantine requirements in other countries either.

Financial aid for airlines will not affect whether you're working or on EI.

Digits, assuming you are a pilot, regardless of whether you work at an airline or not, what do you suggest the appropriate course of action is for the aviation industry in Canada? The same question goes to everyone else on this forum who is against, or doesn't see government aid as helping our industry

What do you all propose? I have asked this question a few times in other threads and I have never gotten a clear response from any of the naysayers

And when I say aid, I don't mean it in a monetary form necessarily, as I have stated in other threads. I have said time and time, while monetary aid is good, we need to relax quarantine measures too... Hell, even Airbus CEO recently called out Canada on their lack of aid

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bnnblo ... 8.amp.html

Unfortunately I think there isn't much that can be done. If people don't travel, there is a limited need for airlines. If the government acts on the premise that the spread of Corona needs to be limited, then the curernt quarantaine rules for air travel make sense. If that's the government's stance, there is nothing fundamental that Garneau can do or change.

Would financial aid for airlines help? Not sure. I wouldn't be against it if I had to vote on it, but I doubt it would help much. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't affect pilot employment. Companies won't just keep pilots on the pay roll for no reason, even if they did get financing from the government. As a matter of fact, the CEWS program probably saved more jobs than airline financing instead of CEWS would have done. CEWS financing goes to the employees, financial aid goes to company operations, not fully to the employees, if anything.

Lastly, why does it matter if I'm a pilot? Only listening to what other pilots think might help to share in the misery, but it's unlikely that would result in a viable solution, supported by the general public and/or the politicians. It's the input of non-pilots you need. I doubt they would be very understanding that 200 people can sit in an airplane and travel, when their favorite restaurant with 40 seats is limited to take out only for example. From a non-pilot point of view, those remarks make sense.

If by some miracle, you'd find arguments that would convince the government to remove the quarantaine requirements for air travel, then every other business affected by those rules, would have arguments to get rid of their restrictions as well. And even then, Garneau does not decide on covid rules, which makes me wonder why people are blaming him for everything. It would be like a resort owner blaming the weather man for the rain he's had for the past 6 months, and demand that said weather man buys umbrellas for each of his guests, so they can still use the outdoor pool.

The core of the issue is that covid spreads by people meeting other people. The goal of travelling, is to meet other people. I therefore think it is a futile attempt to try and get the covid quarantine rules waived for air travel. Especially since achieving that goal in Canada would change very little, as your destination countries would have to do the same.

[twa22]

Wrong.

You wrote:



I ask you again: what do you want Garneau to do to fix this? If people aren't flying, there is nothing he can do. He doesn't control quarantine requirements in other countries either.

Financial aid for airlines will not affect whether you're working or on EI.

Digits, assuming you are a pilot, regardless of whether you work at an airline or not, what do you suggest the appropriate course of action is for the aviation industry in Canada? The same question goes to everyone else on this forum who is against, or doesn't see government aid as helping our industry

What do you all propose? I have asked this question a few times in other threads and I have never gotten a clear response from any of the naysayers

And when I say aid, I don't mean it in a monetary form necessarily, as I have stated in other threads. I have said time and time, while monetary aid is good, we need to relax quarantine measures too... Hell, even Airbus CEO recently called out Canada on their lack of aid

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bnnblo ... 8.amp.html

Unfortunately I think there isn't much that can be done. If people don't travel, there is a limited need for airlines. If the government acts on the premise that the spread of Corona needs to be limited, then the curernt quarantaine rules for air travel make sense. If that's the government's stance, there is nothing fundamental that Garneau can do or change.

Would financial aid for airlines help? Not sure. I wouldn't be against it if I had to vote on it, but I doubt it would help much. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't affect pilot employment. Companies won't just keep pilots on the pay roll for no reason, even if they did get financing from the government. As a matter of fact, the CEWS program probably saved more jobs than airline financing instead of CEWS would have done. CEWS financing goes to the employees, financial aid goes to company operations, not fully to the employees, if anything.

Lastly, why does it matter if I'm a pilot? Only listening to what other pilots think might help to share in the misery, but it's unlikely that would result in a viable solution, supported by the general public and/or the politicians. It's the input of non-pilots you need. I doubt they would be very understanding that 200 people can sit in an airplane and travel, when their favorite restaurant with 40 seats is limited to take out only for example. From a non-pilot point of view, those remarks make sense.

If by some miracle, you'd find arguments that would convince the government to remove the quarantaine requirements for air travel, then every other business affected by those rules, would have arguments to get rid of their restrictions as well. And even then, Garneau does not decide on covid rules, which makes me wonder why people are blaming him for everything. It would be like a resort owner blaming the weather man for the rain he's had for the past 6 months, and demand that said weather man buys umbrellas for each of his guests, so they can still use the outdoor pool.

The core of the issue is that covid spreads by people meeting other people. The goal of travelling, is to meet other people. I therefore think it is a futile attempt to try and get the covid quarantine rules waived for air travel. Especially since achieving that goal in Canada would change very little, as your destination countries would have to do the same.

Yea ok fair points, if people can't travel then it's futile to give airlines money, as they'll continue bleeding even after they've gotten some cash. But, they're going to bleed either way, at least with some monetary compensation in the form of some loan (note; not a free handout), they'll at least be able to bleed for longer... and by then, hopefully these quarantine measures and restrictions will be lessened (which I keep saying is where not just we, but the world needs to start addressing, and unlike us, most of the world has started to very slowly, ease some restrictions)

I think what we here as pilots are more pissed about is the fact that EVERY G7 country with a major airline got help, where as we got nothing and continue to get nothing.

Also, you talk about the general population and seeing it with their eyes versus looking at this issue as pilots... well ok fine

I want to go traveling, not as a pilot, when this whole crap ends, but, what if majority of Canadian airlines start to go under, or if not under, are severally compromised by the end of this? What if the options to travel from Canada are limited? What if it will cost me 3000 dollars in the future to fly round trip to Europe versus roughly 1000 nowadays? How do you think the public will see that in the future? They're pissed about not getting their full cash refunds now, and the government not lifting a finger to help until airlines give money back? OK, fine, i'd like to see the publics reaction when they only have one airline choice, and it costs them 5 times more to travel then it used to. Not saying it'll happen, just saying these are all possibilities which the general public doesn't give two shits about right now

[DanWEC]

The single largest factor affecting travel is the imposition of the 14 day quarantine. Removal has been predicted to increase people's ability to travel by over 50%.

This measure is irrelevent and antiquated. We have piles of data and directives that show it's pointless once a pandemic is worldwide. Even ICAO's protocols directly describe this.

Notwithstanding the fact that movement between populations of similar infection rates hardly causes any effects, we've also had the capability for a proper, sensible, effecient approach using rapid testing at departure and arrival sites now for months and months, and we've seen extremely glacial movement on this, forgetting that time is of the essence. Still very little targeted measures, just the same broad strokes measures....still....

The second major issue is the lack of financial assistance. No explanation needed here.

So, these are the two primary factors neutering the airline and travel industry, and they both lie 100%, squarely within Garneau's wheelhouse.

What more do you want to know Digits?

[porcsord]

Isn't it hard to justify requiring financial assistance when they (AC) is in the process of buying out another airline when demand is so low? I do agree that the elimination of the 14 day quarantine would increase travel, although I don't think an open border with the US would bode too great in terms of virus spread.

[ant_321]

Wrong.

You wrote:



I ask you again: what do you want Garneau to do to fix this? If people aren't flying, there is nothing he can do. He doesn't control quarantine requirements in other countries either.

Financial aid for airlines will not affect whether you're working or on EI.

Digits, assuming you are a pilot, regardless of whether you work at an airline or not, what do you suggest the appropriate course of action is for the aviation industry in Canada? The same question goes to everyone else on this forum who is against, or doesn't see government aid as helping our industry

What do you all propose? I have asked this question a few times in other threads and I have never gotten a clear response from any of the naysayers

And when I say aid, I don't mean it in a monetary form necessarily, as I have stated in other threads. I have said time and time, while monetary aid is good, we need to relax quarantine measures too... Hell, even Airbus CEO recently called out Canada on their lack of aid

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bnnblo ... 8.amp.html

Unfortunately I think there isn't much that can be done. If people don't travel, there is a limited need for airlines. If the government acts on the premise that the spread of Corona needs to be limited, then the curernt quarantaine rules for air travel make sense. If that's the government's stance, there is nothing fundamental that Garneau can do or change.

Would financial aid for airlines help? Not sure. I wouldn't be against it if I had to vote on it, but I doubt it would help much. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't affect pilot employment. Companies won't just keep pilots on the pay roll for no reason, even if they did get financing from the government. As a matter of fact, the CEWS program probably saved more jobs than airline financing instead of CEWS would have done. CEWS financing goes to the employees, financial aid goes to company operations, not fully to the employees, if anything.

Lastly, why does it matter if I'm a pilot? Only listening to what other pilots think might help to share in the misery, but it's unlikely that would result in a viable solution, supported by the general public and/or the politicians. It's the input of non-pilots you need. I doubt they would be very understanding that 200 people can sit in an airplane and travel, when their favorite restaurant with 40 seats is limited to take out only for example. From a non-pilot point of view, those remarks make sense.

If by some miracle, you'd find arguments that would convince the government to remove the quarantaine requirements for air travel, then every other business affected by those rules, would have arguments to get rid of their restrictions as well. And even then, Garneau does not decide on covid rules, which makes me wonder why people are blaming him for everything. It would be like a resort owner blaming the weather man for the rain he's had for the past 6 months, and demand that said weather man buys umbrellas for each of his guests, so they can still use the outdoor pool.

The core of the issue is that covid spreads by people meeting other people. The goal of travelling, is to meet other people. I therefore think it is a futile attempt to try and get the covid quarantine rules waived for air travel. Especially since achieving that goal in Canada would change very little, as your destination countries would have to do the same.

You’re missing the point. Airlines are asking for a science based, rapid testing approach instead of a blanket 14 day quarantine. Much like has been done in other countries. A recent survey found that over 50% of Canadians that travel regularly would plan to travel in the next 6 months if the 14 day quarantine is lifted (I apologize, I can’t seem to find it now). That’s enough to give airlines a chance at surviving. You can check out betterborders.ca if you would like more information on what is being asked for.

[digits_]

The single largest factor affecting travel is the imposition of the 14 day quarantine. Removal has been predicted to increase people's ability to travel by over 50%.

Well yes, that's the point. The government wants to prevent travelling.

This measure is irrelevent and antiquated. We have piles of data and directives that show it's pointless once a pandemic is worldwide. Even ICAO's protocols directly describe this.

Notwithstanding the fact that movement between populations of similar infection rates hardly causes any effects, we've also had the capability for a proper, sensible, effecient approach using rapid testing at departure and arrival sites now for months and months, and we've seen extremely glacial movement on this, forgetting that time is of the essence. Still very little targeted measures, just the same broad strokes measures....still....

That would effectively be the end of every covid counter measure. Nobody will follow any rules if you can just go and sit with 200 people in a pressurized tube. If that's the way the government wants to go, sure, go ahead, but it looks like they want to prevent the spreading of the virus. Unrestricted airline travel simply doesn't work with that policy.

I fail to see how Garneau could decide otherwise for this. Not even sure he has the power to do so, even if he really wanted. Maybe lobby his colleauges that decide about the quarantine stuff?

The second major issue is the lack of financial assistance. No explanation needed here.

So, these are the two primary factors neutering the airline and travel industry, and they both lie 100%, squarely within Garneau's wheelhouse.

What more do you want to know Digits?

That's probably mainly his decision. Do you think the financing will save pilot jobs?
Would you have preferred the airlines got bailout money, or did you prefer the CEWS option?

Don't forget all airlines could participate in the CEWS program. That helped out a lot of pilots, more than bailout money would have IMO.

[digits_]

You’re missing the point. Airlines are asking for a science based, rapid testing approach instead of a blanket 14 day quarantine. Much like has been done in other countries. A recent survey found that over 50% of Canadians that travel regularly would plan to travel in the next 6 months if the 14 day quarantine is lifted (I apologize, I can’t seem to find it now). That’s enough to give airlines a chance at surviving.

I believe that, yet that is exactly what the government policies want to prevent. So yes, easing the quarantine rules will get more people travelling. But that's not something you want to do during a pandemic. If you end this, you're basically ending the fight against covid. Which is a viable option, but doesn't seem to be the path the government is on - yet.

I would find it extremely hard, as a politician, to justify nearly unrestricted airline travel, and at the same time cose local stores to prevent covid spread. These 2 policies just don't mix well.

[digits_]

I think what we here as pilots are more pissed about is the fact that EVERY G7 country with a major airline got help, where as we got nothing and continue to get nothing.

But did that save any jobs in those other countries? I'm assuming from your point of view, that's what ultimately matters?

[twa22]

I think what we here as pilots are more pissed about is the fact that EVERY G7 country with a major airline got help, where as we got nothing and continue to get nothing.

But did that save any jobs in those other countries? I'm assuming from your point of view, that's what ultimately matters?

No, it did not save jobs directly in the short term, but i'm sure it helped. Instead of 10000 job loses, it was only 7000 (I'm throwing random numbers here, I don't know the exact figures but you get what i'm trying to say)

It's also the long term here that has to be focused on, as I just pointed out with what could possibly happen if our industry is a lot more downsized. If a job loss is a temporary one, it sucks, but if that becomes long term or permanent, that's even worse, and then you also have the problem with what will happen to paying customers down the road as I said in my previous post

There's no winning here in the short term, it's all about minimizing long term damage, in my view at least

I won't argue preventing the spread on flights, there have been several studies that show in flight transmission is extremely unlikely (if everyone is wearing a mask)

[Canoehead]

This isn't about CEWS vs Government intervention. Also, does anyone know where 14 days comes from? I do and it's not a scientific number. These are the things we are waiting for Garneau et al to show up and discuss. But apparently he's too busy reading by the fire.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

does anyone know where 14 days comes from? I do and it's not a scientific number.

A few thousand years of disease experience. It was originally 40 days - i.e. quarantine. The idea is not new. You may debate until you're blue in the face about how long it should be - but the concept of quarantine is not new. It hasn't been, not at least since Hippocrates. Perhaps the Black Death or Justinian's Plague. But now I digress.

[mbav8r]

I think what we here as pilots are more pissed about is the fact that EVERY G7 country with a major airline got help, where as we got nothing and continue to get nothing.

But did that save any jobs in those other countries? I'm assuming from your point of view, that's what ultimately matters?

Notice, the caveat, all furloughed employees recalled as a condition, with this stimulus 40 BILLION! in aide to airlines that directly compete with our airlines, fu#@*n liberals!
https://simpleflying.com/us-covid-aid-vote/
How will the package affect the aviation industry?

If the stimulus bill passes through Congress and the Senate without a hitch, airlines are set to receive around $15bn in total. As part of the conditions, carriers will be required to call back over 32,000 workers who were furloughed over the fall period.

Workers will be back on the payroll from December 1, 2020, to March 31, 2021, with no guarantees for job security after this period expires. The vast majority of furloughing took place at United and American Airlines, with both Delta and Southwest avoiding any furloughs at all.

[confusedalot]

Don't confuse Garneau with any sort of stand up person. The person is a product of the canadian navy, chosen to be an astronaut for political purposes, and is now a politician. We're not talking . Yeager here, who actually needed to use brains to do a job. We are talking political product who will do whatever he needs to do to keep his paycheck and his pension. Pretty sad, that is what is running the country.