Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

[pelmet]

It seems strange that some pilots make a MayDay to ATC when they barely have control of the aircraft. There is nothing ATC can do to help you maintain control of the aircraft. Control of the aircraft is a much higher priority than having emergency equipment rolling out to the runway behind you.

I recently got into several King Air crash reports, and in three of them control was lost soon after the pilot spent time declaring an emergency, one with a handheld microphone while struggling to to control the aircraft.

This guy lost engine power for unknown reasons at a very low altitude on takeoff and while telling ATC about it, lost control and crashed into the FlightSafety training Center killing several inside.....
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2016/10/b ... g-air.html

This guy had full rudder trim set for takeoff. He never got above 160' while fighting for control of the aircraft but was able to say MayDay to ATC 7 times.
https://reports.aviation-safety.net/201 ... VH-ZCR.pdf

This guy lost his engine at 100 feet and had to manually feather the engine and had the sun in his eyes. All of which makes you pretty busy yet he grabbed the microphone and was talking to ATC. He never got above 150' and crashed killing all.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/5772420/802-1017.pdf


I suggest if an engine has been lost at or near rotation, to spend 100% of concentration on controlling the aircraft, just fly where you want to fly if it is safer than the straight ahead or obstacle departure path......and ignore ATC until safe to talk to them, especially when single pilot. Even on two crew aircraft, no calls are made below 400 feet.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I think I may perhaps have recently started a thread about how I made sure I had control of the aircraft before talking to ATC; I was defending my position of aviating first and communicating last, violations be damned.

Nice to see someone else driving home the same point. Thanks.

I suggest if an engine has been lost at or near rotation, to spend 100% of concentration on controlling the aircraft, just fly where you want to fly if it is safer than straight ahead/obstacle departure path and ignore ATC until safe to talk to them, especially when single pilot. Even on two crew aircraft, no calls are made below 400 feet.

My only experience thus far is either with single pistons or gliders - so, one engine, or no engine. (With gliders the big risk on takeoff is that your tow rope breaks, it's usually a cheap poly rope). So - what if your only engine is lost? I'm flying out of Billy Bishop right now, so an EFATO pretty much means drowning. I would posit that a mayday call is rather important when you're looking at ditching in 1° water in the next twenty seconds, and that it may in fact take precedence over establishing control of the aircraft.

Isn't this a little early to turn crosswind?

There's nothing out there but drowning. You should turn crosswind.

[edit]To be fair to my instructor, he/she has made sure I can handle an EFATO without panicking, and has taught, and drilled me on, mental checklists specific to flying the circuit at the island.[/edit]

[pelmet]

My only experience thus far is either with single pistons or gliders - so, one engine, or no engine. (With gliders the big risk on takeoff is that your tow rope breaks, it's usually a cheap poly rope). So - what if your only engine is lost? I'm flying out of Billy Bishop right now, so an EFATO pretty much means drowning. I would posit that a mayday call is rather important when you're looking at ditching in 1° water in the next twenty seconds, and that it may in fact take precedence over establishing control of the aircraft.

While my post was more toward multi-engine situations, it would still apply in your case. It has happened many times where a pilot of a single engine aircraft has stalled after an engine failure on climbout. Lower the nose first to ensure that you do not stall and lose control of the aircraft, then decide what is the next most important item.....which could include a call to ATC in some rare circumstances.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I think what I was trying to communicate was that in some circumstances, communication can be a higher priority - especially when you have 20 seconds (or so) to get a call out before crashing or ditching.

It's not quite as simple as "aviate navigate communicate" when a cold blue nothing is waiting for you. Perhaps this is what was going through these pilots' minds: "I will crash. I have twenty seconds. Call the cavalry, before it's too late.". Perhaps they concentrated too much on getting out a call for help, but I do think that there are situations where calling for help comes before all else - and an EFATO (in my case, over icy waters) is high on that list of my theoreticals.

I haven't read what you posted Pelmet, I'm into some brandy right now. I'm sure once I've read it it will be even less clear than it is now.

[pelmet]

I think what I was trying to communicate was that in some circumstances, communication can be a higher priority - especially when you have 20 seconds (or so) to get a call out before crashing or ditching.

It's not quite as simple as "aviate navigate communicate" when a cold blue nothing is waiting for you. Perhaps this is what was going through these pilots' minds: "I will crash. I have twenty seconds. Call the cavalry, before it's too late.". Perhaps they concentrated too much on getting out a call for help, but I do think that there are situations where calling for help comes before all else - and an EFATO (in my case, over icy waters) is high on that list of my theoreticals.

I haven't read what you posted Pelmet, I'm into some brandy right now. I'm sure once I've read it it will be even less clear than it is now.

Thanks, enjoy the brandy. I still think that aviate take priority over communicate. I understand that both could be done at the same time in extreme scenarios like yours making them equal. But if you declared an emergency and stalled it in(which is likely fatal) due to distraction, your MayDay call achieved no benefit for you and may have resulted in your death.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Thanks, enjoy the brandy. I still think that aviate take priority over communicate. I understand that both could be done at the same time in extreme scenarios like yours making them equal. But if you declared an emergency and stalled it in(which is likely fatal) due to distraction, your MayDay call achieved no benefit for you and may have resulted in your death.

Well I'll disagree with you there.

Once I've called for help, I am secure in knowing that the coast guard is coming (or in my case, the Toronto Police marine unit). This at least means that I can place rescue out of my mind, because I know it's coming, and I can now concentrate on not killing me and my passengers. And no - a mayday call means help *WILL come* in the absence of further communication. *NO* mayday call means that help will *not* come, until either ATC reports me as missing or a waywatcher reports a downed aircraft.

I'm still arguing that getting out a mayday takes higher priority when you only have seconds -- and that it may, perhaps, take a higher priority than controlling the aircraft.

But let's not forget... I know nothing.

[photofly]

It’s not as bad as you imagine; even without a radio call the tower controller will see you in difficulty well before you enter the water and will be onto the airport fire and rescue service to launch their quick reaction inflatable; I believe they’re in the water within ninety seconds, and I’m sure they’d be grateful for the practice. Marine police won’t show up for ages. Probably shortly after the environment people looking who to blame for the fuel spillage in the water.

[pelmet]

Thanks, enjoy the brandy. I still think that aviate take priority over communicate. I understand that both could be done at the same time in extreme scenarios like yours making them equal. But if you declared an emergency and stalled it in(which is likely fatal) due to distraction, your MayDay call achieved no benefit for you and may have resulted in your death.

Well I'll disagree with you there.

Once I've called for help, I am secure in knowing that the coast guard is coming (or in my case, the Toronto Police marine unit). This at least means that I can place rescue out of my mind, because I know it's coming, and I can now concentrate on not killing me and my passengers. And no - a mayday call means help *WILL come* in the absence of further communication. *NO* mayday call means that help will *not* come, until either ATC reports me as missing or a waywatcher reports a downed aircraft.

I'm still arguing that getting out a mayday takes higher priority when you only have seconds -- and that it may, perhaps, take a higher priority than controlling the aircraft.

But let's not forget... I know nothing.

It’s not as bad as you imagine; even without a radio call the tower controller will see you in difficulty well before you enter the water and will be onto the airport fire and rescue service to launch their quick reaction inflatable; I believe they’re in the water within ninety seconds, and I’m sure they’d be grateful for the practice.

Correct. Control the aircraft as the highest priority.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

It’s not as bad as you imagine; even without a radio call the tower controller will see you in difficulty well before you enter the water and will be onto the airport fire and rescue service to launch their quick reaction inflatable; I believe they’re in the water within ninety seconds, and I’m sure they’d be grateful for the practice. Marine police won’t show up for ages. Probably shortly after the environment people looking who to blame for the fuel spillage in the water.

Ah yes I get you, but your argument is premised on the assumption that they see me. The point of placing a radio call at a higher priority than aviating is that I cannot be guaranteed that they see me.

Of course mentioning "fuel spill" can't hurt if the feces has hit the rotator...

Correct. Control the aircraft as the highest priority.

Well hey now the whole point of my argument here is -- when does it not?

[photofly]

Ah yes I get you, but your argument is premised on the assumption that they see me.

It’s a VFR tower, and you’ve just taken off from their runway in VMC. It’s their job to watch the airplanes. They’ll see you.

[pelmet]

It’s not as bad as you imagine; even without a radio call the tower controller will see you in difficulty well before you enter the water and will be onto the airport fire and rescue service to launch their quick reaction inflatable; I believe they’re in the water within ninety seconds, and I’m sure they’d be grateful for the practice. Marine police won’t show up for ages. Probably shortly after the environment people looking who to blame for the fuel spillage in the water.

Ah yes I get you, but your argument is premised on the assumption that they see me. The point of placing a radio call at a higher priority than aviating is that I cannot be guaranteed that they see me.

Of course mentioning "fuel spill" can't hurt if the feces has hit the rotator...

Correct. Control the aircraft as the highest priority.

Well hey now the whole point of my argument here is -- when does it not?

Ever.

[Canoehead]

Doesn't even need to be an emergency. Tower calls you to "Go around"... what should you do? What do many pilots do?

It blows my mind how many pilots are just dying to get that acknowledgement out to ATC before they start doing anything else.

Watch a few on YouTube. It's painful.

Fly the F*&%ing airplane first.

[sunk]

Fly the airplane first, if and when it’s safe make the call.

[valleyboy]

With inexperienced pilots the first thing I always had to beat out of them is not to start yapping on the radio as soon as airborne. I guess that's how the schools train them and it's wrong. Fly the aircraft or do you non flying pilot duties of monitoring until the safe altitude is achieved (400 to 600 feet)
It's even a must guideline in small and single pilot, your concentration should be on flying the aircraft for those first few hundred feet, ATC and the tower are not expecting you to xmit so why do it?? I would rather concentrate on the aircraft in those first few critical seconds that be distracted by making a radio call.

Let's face it a desperate mayday call usually does not mean much to those on the aircraft. It's too late. The ELT takes over.

[photofly]

With inexperienced pilots the first thing I always had to beat out of them is not to start yapping on the radio as soon as airborne. I guess that's how the schools train them and it's wrong.

What, everysingleone? Can we have an emoji for instructor-bashing, please? Who the @#$! are "the schools"? Some Bilderberg style secret CABAL of evil-doers who all agree on how to teach your intake wrong, just to annoy you?

(Say, actually, I might be on to something there...)

[pelmet]

I think what I was trying to communicate was that in some circumstances, communication can be a higher priority - especially when you have 20 seconds (or so) to get a call out before crashing or ditching.

Keep in mind that my original post and example were for situations where a pilot, especially a single crew pilot is struggling for a significant amount of time to handle the aircraft and place it in a safe situation while possibly performing certain action items such as retracting gear, feathering the propeller, increasing airspeed, reducing drag by other means, etc. This could take several minutes and during that time, I suggest not distracting yourself with ATC talk(especially as they frequently like to ask more and more questions or give information that is not as critical at that moment as aircraft control).

In your scenario where one only has 20 seconds in a light single engine aircraft after an engine failure on climbout, ensuring proper control of the aircraft is likely quite different and probably can accomplished in perhaps 2 seconds or so. Ensure proper airspeed, likely by pushing forward on the control column. With that completed, you still would have 18 seconds to make your call to ATC.

[photofly]

Ensure proper airspeed, likely by pushing forward on the control column.

Yawn... that old discredited lazy meme again? You can do better than that.

[pelmet]

Ensure proper airspeed, likely by pushing forward on the control column.

Yawn... that old discredited lazy meme again? You can do better than that.

Not quite sure what you mean.

Anyways, ensure control of the aircraft by whatever means as the priority.

[photofly]

Ensure proper airspeed, likely by pushing forward on the control column.

Yawn... that old discredited lazy meme again? You can do better than that.

Not quite sure what you mean.

Everyone else is!

[pelmet]

Yawn... that old discredited lazy meme again? You can do better than that.

Not quite sure what you mean.

Everyone else is!

When I made my statement about not being sure what you mean, I thought that you might have something useful to mention about controlling aircraft and hope that you would expand on it. Now it appears that whatever it is that you are trying to get across is completely useless.

For those interested in preventing crashes and using this forum for discussing such issues.....control the aircraft first and then communicate later. Read the accident reports I provided and........

Have a Safe and Happy New Year.

[digits_]

With inexperienced pilots the first thing I always had to beat out of them is not to start yapping on the radio as soon as airborne. I guess that's how the schools train them and it's wrong.

What, everysingleone? Can we have an emoji for instructor-bashing, please? Who the @#$! are "the schools"? Some Bilderberg style secret CABAL of evil-doers who all agree on how to teach your intake wrong, just to annoy you?

As an instructor, you should be quite proud that apparently students fly exactly like you taught them for almost eternity. A screw up by a commercial pilot 25 years later, over 30 PPCs passed, yet the root cause of the incident is always bad instruction during primary training!

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personably I think this argument rather misses the point. Survival after an engine failure is not contingent on getting a radio call out it is on having a plan. The radio will not usually figure into that plan and if it does it should , IMO be well down the list

How many GA pilots actually do a mental brief of the immediate actions for the EFATO before takeoff including a predetermine plan on where they are going to point the airplane if the engine becomes disinterested in further toil. ? My bet is not many

Carrying on that theme given that approximately 75 % of engine failures are directly the result of pilot actions or inactions, How many GA pilots really understand what they are looking for in the runup ? My guess is a lot of them mindless do a rote reading of the checklist items without really thinking about what they are seeing.

[valleyboy]

A screw up by a commercial pilot 25 years later, over 30 PPCs passed, yet the root cause of the incident is always bad instruction during primary training!

really! read the post

There something wrong with the current system. The lack or stick and rudder skills is rampant but the knowledge of rules has taken priority over basic skills. Schools are concentrating on being puppy mills and first priority is to turn out "commercial" pilots. The system does not give the private pilot hobbyist much support after passing that check ride. The "club" atmosphere is almost nonexistent with the ability to use club instructors to check you out in your "brand new" old conventional gear aircraft. Mentoring by club members, a lot of professional types were there because flying their cub or C195 and such was more satisfying than their heavy metal. Yes times change but not necessarily for the best.

Obsession for rules and black and white thinking is very confusing for me. There is a lot of grey in them there skies.

[shimmydampner]

I'm flying out of Billy Bishop right now, so an EFATO pretty much means drowning. I would posit that a mayday call is rather important when you're looking at ditching in 1° water in the next twenty seconds, and that it may in fact take precedence over establishing control of the aircraft.

One day when you have some experience you'll hopefully realize the absurdity of this statement. Ditching is a very survivable event, in the order of 88%. Certainly much more survivable than a stall/spin scenario, which is much more common and significantly more fatal. Keeping the aircraft under control is ALWAYS more important than talking on the radio.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

One day when you have some experience you'll hopefully realize the absurdity of this statement. Ditching is a very survivable event, in the order of 88%. Certainly much more survivable than a stall/spin scenario, which is much more common and significantly more fatal. Keeping the aircraft under control is ALWAYS more important than talking on the radio.

Oh, you're probably right. But something else to consider - the impact with the water is not the problem. 90% of ditching fatalities survived the initial impact (ish, TC did a study a while back on it). Most of the rest drowned. In my scenario (small single piston climbing out over water), I'm not carrying a PFD, and this time of year, cold shock could prevent you from even treading water. Survival is entirely dependent on the prompt arrival of help. You've probably got 15 minutes if you wind up floating in the water this time of year. After two minutes, you're probably unable to operate a PLB or the aircraft's ELT as you've lost all dexterity in your hands.

Sure, it's not necessarily smart, what I suggested. I'm probably just being a contrarian. But - some scenarios do change the priority of calling for help.