Getting Into Cargo Business with C208B

[SIMSEK]

Hello,

I am a mechanical engineer and flight instructor from Toronto, Ontario. My friend and I are planning to purchase a C208B Super Cargomaster and get into cargo operation as a (sub)contractor. I have tried to contact many of the major cargo companies such as CargoJet, DHL, Morningstar (FedEx Canada), Amazon etc. haven't heard anything from them yet.

It's not a rocket science. I am a pilot with an aircraft and would like to work with a cargo company. Nothing different from Uber or being an Amazon contractor.

Is there any advice you guys can give me in terms of how can I reach them and how these things work? Especially, I was wondering cost of operation and annual net margin. I am trying to gather information as much as I can. Please do not hesitate to reply.

Thank you.

My best regards,
Ulas SIMSEK

[digits_]

Do you have an AOC yet? It is *slightly* different than Uber...

[SIMSEK]

Do you have an AOC yet? It is *slightly* different than Uber...

No I haven't yet because, I am still not sure whether it's worth it to take that risk, buying an aircraft, or not. After collecting some financial and operational information, I will. Frankly speaking, this is the reason I am here.

Thanks for the quick response by the way. : )

[Squaretail]

In general it’s wiser to find an unmet demand then find an aircraft to fulfill it than to buy an aircraft then try to find work for it.

[photofly]

You're in for a world of pain to get an OC from TC. I'd explore the requirements very thoroughly before committing to anything.

I am a pilot with an aircraft

You're starting at the wrong end of the horse.

You need to be a Company with an Operating Certificate, a Person Responsible for Maintenance, a Chief Pilot that's accptable to TC, an approved company operations manual, an approved maintenance schedule, a maintenance contract with an AMO with experience with your aircraft type, and an approved base of operations. Then you can do the trivial bits and find yourself a pilot and an aircraft.

[SIMSEK]

You're in for a world of pain to get an OC from TC. I'd explore the requirements very thoroughly before committing to anything.

I am a pilot with an aircraft

You're starting at the wrong end of the horse.

You need to be a Company with an Operating Certificate, a Person Responsible for Maintenance, a Chief Pilot that's accptable to TC, an approved company operations manual, an approved maintenance schedule, a maintenance contract with an AMO with experience with your aircraft type, and an approved base of operations. Then you can do the trivial bits and find yourself a pilot and an aircraft.

It was hypothetical. I haven't purchased an aircraft yet but I get the idea.

This way you have just mentioned still applies for subcontractors? For instance, I want to work with Morningstar. They have all of them; maintenance, certificates, pilots, responsible people etc? I am not starting a new company, just to become a subcontractor.

[boeingboy]

First of all....forget about Morningstar.

They don't deal with subcontractors.... They have all their own aircraft that are supplied by Fedex.

Outfits like DHL, Purolator, the banks - (to some extent) will use various small outfits. None of them will give you the time of day if you have nothing. You need at least an AOC and hopefully some background financials and operating number before they will even say "Hi". There are simply many small operators that have this that they can deal with if needed than someone with a pipe dream. (no offence)

[Bede]

So it sounds like you want to lease an airplane to Morningstar. Am I correct?
Generally, an aircraft lease doesn't come with a pilot.

[Launchpad1]

Good on you for your entrepreneurial spirit. What you're proposing to do is not going to be easy. You could maybe contact the person that used to run Kasper in NW Ontario. I don't think that ended well but he could maybe give you some pointers on how to get started.

[Big Pistons Forever]

You're in for a world of pain to get an OC from TC. I'd explore the requirements very thoroughly before committing to anything.

I am a pilot with an aircraft

You're starting at the wrong end of the horse.

You need to be a Company with an Operating Certificate, a Person Responsible for Maintenance, a Chief Pilot that's acceptable to TC, an approved company operations manual, an approved maintenance schedule, a maintenance contract with an AMO with experience with your aircraft type, and an approved base of operations. Then you can do the trivial bits and find yourself a pilot and an aircraft.

What he said /\

Transport Inspectors just cringe when they get people, usually pilots, that call then and say they just want to buy an airplane and start a little flying business. They generally haven't a clue and get all mad when Transport won't do all the work for them.

Commercial aviation is a business. Like any business you need to start with a fully costed realistic business plan, before you start looking at airplanes, talk to Transport etc etc etc

[I WAS Birddog]

Hello,

I am a mechanical engineer and flight instructor from Toronto, Ontario. My friend and I are planning to purchase a C208B Super Cargomaster and get into cargo operation as a (sub)contractor. I have tried to contact many of the major cargo companies such as CargoJet, DHL, Morningstar (FedEx Canada), Amazon etc. haven't heard anything from them yet.

It's not a rocket science. I am a pilot with an aircraft and would like to work with a cargo company. Nothing different from Uber or being an Amazon contractor.

Is there any advice you guys can give me in terms of how can I reach them and how these things work? Especially, I was wondering cost of operation and annual net margin. I am trying to gather information as much as I can. Please do not hesitate to reply.

Thank you.

My best regards,
Ulas SIMSEK

*sigh* You see.....you're approaching this with the mindset of an engineer, and the skills experience of a flight instructor. That's equivalent to walking across the plains of wild Africa riddled with predators only to get to an already occupied lions den...holding only a walking stick and a bible proclaiming; "it's not rocket science."

Please don't let the naysayers stop you tho. You should 100% do it. Start with reaching out to China. I know a guy that knows a guy, that heard about another guy that had little to no experience in the stock market.....
.....
.....
.... And that's the end of my story.

[rookiepilot]

Good on you for your entrepreneurial spirit. What you're proposing to do is not going to be easy. You could maybe contact the person that used to run Kasper in NW Ontario. I don't think that ended well but he could maybe give you some pointers on how to get started.

This.

The way to do it, is talk to anyone who will talk to you...who runs a business anywhere close to what you want to do. Cold call people. The more advice, the better. Through that, you can develop a vision, and hopefully firm up a business plan.

As a subcontractor, it IS your own business, BTW.....

The good, bad and ugly.

Good luck....

Edit....sounds like a skinny margin business to me....

[telex]

https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/file ... p8880e.pdf

Have a look at this.

TC will require a non refundable sum before they even say hello.

[nine sixteenths]

Start here:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... OR-96-433/

Relevant sections: everything that starts with 703 is a good start. What you are proposing is a 703 Air Operator. Sub contracting your airplane with you flying it isn’t a thing you can do legally unless you hold an AOC. You can’t just use someone else’s.

The airplane is the cheap part of the process

[SIMSEK]

I have learnt from you guys a lot. Thank you all. First steps are always the hardest and now at least I know where to start.
I am going to have a look "Starting a Commercial Air Service" guide and AOC and I guess nine sixteenths is right, purchasing the aeroplane is the easiest part.

By the way, TP 8880 is no longer valid as it has been replaced by TP 4711. For your information.

[schnitzel2k3]

Start here:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/reg ... OR-96-433/

Relevant sections: everything that starts with 703 is a good start. What you are proposing is a 703 Air Operator. Sub contracting your airplane with you flying it isn’t a thing you can do legally unless you hold an AOC. You can’t just use someone else’s.

The airplane is the cheap part of the process

Sure you can, have someone manage the Caravan under their AOC. Business aircraft management is one of the biggest sectors in Canadian business aviation.

It's complex, but I'm sure someone is happy to take 40-50k, plus a % to manage a Caravan. Most management companies have provisions for cargo.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Sure you can, have someone manage the Caravan under their AOC. Business aircraft management is one of the biggest sectors in Canadian business aviation.

It's complex, but I'm sure someone is happy to take 40-50k, plus a % to manage a Caravan. Most management companies have provisions for cargo.

The difference is the OP wants to fly his own airplane. Management and leasing companies want tin, not pilots as they will have lots of their own guys on staff or a preferred list of new hires.

[Ash Ketchum]

I actually had the same idea to buy a caravan and subcontract with bigger cargo carriers. I agree that getting the AOC and other steps required by TC are a headache however I think the main issue is the feasibility and potential profit margins of this business idea. I also don't think there would be much if any profit leftover if a management company manages the aircraft and flying.

Subcontracting does seem like the best way to move forward but I don't think cargojet or morningstar will be interested and they own alot of the cargo market in the south. The northern communities also have their battles over cargo contracts so the market could be oversaturated already. Worth a try though, I was going to cold call and email around a bit and see what happens.

[challenger_nami]

OP, What you are trying to achieve is possible.... But super super difficult to achieve and sustain.

I agree with many of the points brought forward above. What ultimately makes a difference here is how much disposable capital you got, and what your headache & risk tolerance is.



.

[schnitzel2k3]

Sure you can, have someone manage the Caravan under their AOC. Business aircraft management is one of the biggest sectors in Canadian business aviation.

It's complex, but I'm sure someone is happy to take 40-50k, plus a % to manage a Caravan. Most management companies have provisions for cargo.

The difference is the OP wants to fly his own airplane. Management and leasing companies want tin, not pilots as they will have lots of their own guys on staff or a preferred list of new hires.

If he wanted to fly and had the appropriate licenses and experience, they would likely just shove another pilot in there, take his cash, a percentage of his charter (cargo) and look the other way.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I know of 2 cases where a pilot bought a job by purchasing a majority stake in an already existing and operating 703 AOC.
One was financed by the bank of Daddy and the whole thing ended badly. The other involved the pilot putting everything he owned on the line to pay for the buy in and resulted in a 25 year pretty good run for him and his employees.

[rookiepilot]

I know of 2 cases where a pilot bought a job by purchasing a majority stake in an already existing and operating 703 AOC.
One was financed by the bank of Daddy and the whole thing ended badly. The other involved the pilot putting everything he owned on the line to pay for the buy in and resulted in a 25 year pretty good run for him and his employees.

There's a lesson there, somewhere.

[tsgarp]

Your best bet is to go after north south route, flown mostly at low altitude.

[challenger_nami]

Your best bet is to go after north south route, flown mostly at low altitude.

Either that, or learn from what this guy did:
https://youtu.be/bTyypqf62eY




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[Maynard]

Good on you for your entrepreneurial spirit. What you're proposing to do is not going to be easy. You could maybe contact the person that used to run Kasper in NW Ontario. I don't think that ended well but he could maybe give you some pointers on how to get started.

LMAO good advice. Follow that and you'll never get off the ground...well legally.....