MP3 Players in the Flightdeck

[tlux]

How many people listen to music while they fly?

There are jacks that can be rigged up where you can listen to your MP3 via your headset. The set-up is actually pretty cool. Some have a system where the music totally cuts out when another transmission is being made, others just keep playing the music faintly in the background.

I have to admit that there is something sublime about setting up for cruise on top of an overcast layer and listening to Pink Floyd in the background.

How does T/C & CARS stand on the use of music and other forms of entertianment (i.e. Game Boy) on the flight deck?

Don't laugh.....I knew a guy that use to play Donkey Kong Jr. while he was instructing in a C-150!

[FREEFALL]

I personally don't think adding a distraction like that is good. What do you think TC would say about an accident that was proven to have been caused from the pilot not paying attention to the radios? Or what a passenger would think if their pilot was watching a movie on their lap top?

[desksgo]

I know with my luck I'd get to be the first guy to have the TSB write up a causal factor in my accident report as "Rock Lobster by the B52s"

But seriously, if you can't leave your Tonka trucks, gameboys and music players behind while you go slip the surely bonds, then maybe this expensive hobby isn't for you. Here's to professionalism, leave your toys on the ground.

[CID]

One can argue that playing Gameboy is no more distracting than filling in the daily crossword puzzle or talking about the latest union settlement without the CoJo.

Simply put, dangerous distractions should be avoided no matter what the source and you won't find the regulators (TC, FAA etc) making specific rules that enable the introduction of ANYTHING in the cockpit that can be considered entertainment.

CAR 602 contains regulations on such things as “Reckless or Negligent Operation of Aircraft” and “Portable Electronic Equipment” that generally covers this issue.

Reckless or Negligent Operation of Aircraft
602.01 No person shall operate an aircraft in such a reckless or negligent manner as to endanger or be likely to endanger the life or property of any person.


Portable Electronic Devices
602.08 (1) No operator of an aircraft shall permit the use of a portable electronic device on board an aircraft, where the device may impair the functioning of the aircraft's systems or equipment.
(2) No person shall use a portable electronic device on board an aircraft except with the permission of the operator of the aircraft.

So, generally speaking, the flight crew is responsible for determining what “reckless or negligent” behavior is and if/when it is appropriate to operate PEDs in the cockpit. All of us have different “reckless and negligent” thresholds so I’m not surprised that some consider “Game Boy” OK. But I would guess many airline owners would frown upon that sort of thing and cringe at the thought of a passenger seeing a pilot play video games in the cockpit or hear the familiar sound of light sabre fights coming from beyond the re-enforced cockpit door.

By the way, I don't have a huge issue with music being played in your headset as long as the volume is at a reasonable level so as it doesn't distract you. Who hasn't listened to the hockey game on the ADF?

[Pie Lot]

Holy Shit People....give it a break!!:

Try doing four, fourteen and a half hour days in a row with the same co-joe and tell me what you have left to talk about on day four on your 2 hour ride up to YER. Not much. If you guys think that listening to your MP3 player, under your headset, where you can still hear all radio calls, and your co-joe; is dangerous...you guys are whacked.

I bought a small set of earphones that fit nicely under my headset, and on the cruise portions of legs, I listen to tunes all the time. And regardelss of what you think, it really is awesome listening to a little Bob Marley while cruising over the deck of clouds with the moon reflecting off them. Kind of makes the job seem worth it sometimes. No danger to anyone. Just a little fun and relaxation in the air. The "portable electronic device" isn't bothering anyone or anything. And besides, I am the operator so I guess I have my permission.

[2low]

I hear ya, but its illegal.

[groundtoflightdeck]

Take off the mic cover, place the ear peice against the mic, then wrap the cord around it to hold it together. Turn down the squelch and up the radio volume. Its just like having it plugged into the system. You can still hear ATC just fine, and the co-pilot can listen to. Just remember to hit pause if someone needs to talk to ATC, or to do a briefing. Just use it for cruise on longer legs, not a danger at all.

[Doc]

TooLow...it ain't illegal.....where do you come up with this?? Pilots read books, they read magazines, they sleep! Where is it stated that using an MP3 player is illegal?? I'd be really interested in seeing that tidbit! We use our cell phones in the aircraft......it states you cant use them without the permission of the operator.....guess what??....you are the operator!
But...on another note....we should drop this subject, before some mindless know-it-all, sitting behind a desk in YOW, reads it and decides to make it illegal??
Besides, what do you think everybody uses their ADF's for??? Navagation? Not anymore!

[Canus Chinookus]

I think the most dangerous thing we can do is open up a large newspaper... How many warning lights do you think you're covering up when you do so? I read the paper also, but I'm careful not to block any critical lights when I do so. As for the other stuff, everything in moderation, and as long as it doesn't impede your other duties, like aviating, navigating and communicating, then who cares what you're doing?

[slowstream]

Does the term or checklist item 10,000 ft ring a bell? It's simple, turn off the tunes when below 10,000 ft. Why do pilots always have to make everything such a dam arguement?

[snowbear]

Will any guys that want to wear music players or play game boys etc. please add your name and company name to your postings. That way I will know what companies not to let my loved ones fly on. Also, if your resume crosses my desk I will not have to waste your time by asking silly "what is a professional pilot" type questions. In fact we should be able to save you gas money as driving to the interview will not be nessesary.

This self inflicted type of cockpit distraction is childish, amature and dangerous. Let's be professionals. The life you save may be your own.

[ahramin]

Most of these systems for listening to music cut out as soon as the intercom or radio becomes active. Making it very difficult to sing along . You are far less likely to miss a radio call listening to music than blabbing with the guy next to you.

CID:

First off the CARs are not proscriptive, they are prohibitive. You do not need to find a rule to enable you to do anything. You can do anything you want as long as the CARs do not prohibit it. If you want to do the crosswords, you do not need to go looking through the CARs for an enabling regulation which states when and where crossword puzzles may be done.

CAR 602.01 certainly applies, but i doubt anyone here is going to play gameboy in the middle of an approach. I'm not going to speculate about your personal abilities, but for most of us here flying does not require 100% of our attention for the entire flight. There are periods - usually long periods - that require little attention. Anyone who thinks listening to music during these periods is reckless is mising something at best.

CAR 602.08 is about electrical interference of the aircraft's systems or equipment. Not about pilot distractions. Please tell me you are suggesting that the mp3 player would screw up your hsi or something and not that being distracted by music would fall under 602.08

[oldtimer]

I have absolutly no problem with PEDs. If my cojo cannot sit for the 1 to 2 hrs it takes to commit aviation, he/she does not enter the cockpit. PUNT

[2low]

Ill answer back in a week there Doc. You know, when your back to normal.

[CID]

We use our cell phones in the aircraft......it states you cant use them without the permission of the operator.....guess what??....you are the operator!

Actually, you can't use your cell phone in the air no matter what the "operator" says. A cell phone is considered a transmitting PED or a "TPED" in the latest gargon.

You might want to read up on the applicable policy:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/comme ... C0106r.htm

a) Prohibited Devices:

Any transmitting device which intentionally radiates radio frequency signals, such as citizen band (CB) radios and transmitters that remotely control devices such as toys.

Ahramin,

Here we go again huh?

You can do anything you want as long as the CARs do not prohibit it.

Yes. You can't be reckless or negligent.

If you want to do the crosswords, you do not need to go looking through the CARs for an enabling regulation which states when and where crossword puzzles may be done.

That is a flip remark that helps nobody. There are no specific regulations that say you can't do a flight inverted either.

Anyone who thinks listening to music during these periods is reckless is mising something at best.

You talking to me? Reread my post.

CAR 602.08 is about electrical interference of the aircraft's systems or equipment. Not about pilot distractions

It is still relevant to the discussion. Unless you know of an MP3 player that works without electricity.

Please tell me you are suggesting that the mp3 player would screw up your hsi or something

And now you've done it again. Drifted into an area that you obviously know nothing about.

I'm sure we'll continue this discussion ol' buddy.

[Doc]

I'll need to know sooner than that...I'm trying to rig my radar screen to watch Family Guy!

[Merlinman]

CID: a cell phone does not transmit on frequencies that interfere with avionics. They're talking about R.C.vehicles and such.... and of course, it has to be "intentional interference".

I always use my cell phone when the radio will not suffice.

[Tiny Voices]

...and when you're through with that Doc, how's about figuring out how to rig up an Xbox to the Lifepac.

[ahramin]

Merlinman: Cellphones do transmit on frequencies that interfere with avionics. Most notably many warning systems. Read the links CID has provided.

I'm not saying you should not use your cellphone when you need to. But if you are commercially flying you should be aware of the regulations and reccomendations. Follow (and read) the links.

[CID]

CID: a cell phone does not transmit on frequencies that interfere with avionics. They're talking about R.C.vehicles and such.... and of course, it has to be "intentional interference".

Simply put, you're wrong.

First there are actually some systems that operate near some cell phone frequencies. Second, interfernce is often the result of harmonics (multiples) of the frquencies transmitted. Third, even though you may know what frequencies are being transmitted and received via the various antennas, its much more difficult to determine what frequencies are being used in the various data busses, system components etc.

Cell phones can radiate a fair amount of power. Up to 4 watts. This relatively huge amount of power in close proximity to databus wiring can certainly cause inteference.

Did you know that devices as seemingly harmless as electronic calculators have been proven to interfere with on-board electronics in the right circumstances? Of course the chances are greatly reduced if the airplane is properly maintained.

One other issue that hasn't been discussed yet is the fact that cell phones are licensed for terrestrial use only. As a matter of fact they don't even work beyond a certain altitude because the cell tower signals aren't beamed upwards. So when you leave your cell phone on in your jacket that is stored in the overhead bin, it can momentarily enter its search mode where it incrementaly increases it's transmitter power while it looks for cells. Until you get up high enough where no cells are available and it occasionally transmits at full power in search mode.

You'd be surprised to learn how many cell phone channels are taken up by airborne phones that constantly negotiate with several cell towers simultaneously.

[ScudRunner]

Well the Aicraft I fly has a Music Jack integrated into the Intercom and with my ANR DC you can crank the old TopGun theme. It works great it cuts out when there is noise on the radio. But where I fly you can go days without hearing another plane or ATC. Just use comon sense I shut it off while landing or when things get busy in the cockpit. But I fly and Islander and nothing ever really gets to "busy". And some old school NWA useally does the trick to drown out the noise of that beast.

[Bede]

Make sure the output impedance of the MP3 player is the same as the input impedance of the system, otherwise, you may have maintenance down your back when the intercomm system fries. (You won't have this problem if you buy an aviation adapter).

[ahramin]

CID:

Maybe i should just leave the nonproductive remarks to you.

you won't find the regulators (TC, FAA etc) making specific rules that enable the introduction of ANYTHING in the cockpit that can be considered entertainment.

So what is productive here? You don't need a rule to enable you to do anything. You can do the flight inverted as long there is no rule against it "No Inverted Flight" or "Inverted Flight not longer than 2 minutes duration." What is your point?

Ok, so you are not saying that distractions are "interference with aircraft systems or equipment". With your track record for misinterpreting rules to support your opinions i had to be sure.

Now on to the thread hijacking:

Are regulators justified in banning cellphone use on board commercial aircraft?

First of all i allow cellphone use in my aircraft at all times except for approaches in imc. I feel this might be overkill but why take a chance?

Some of the research indicates that the possibility of cellphone use causing an accident is so low as to be negligible.

Some of the research indicates that it is definitely possible (however remotely) that a cellphone could cause serious interference with navigation systems, which could conceivably lead to an accident.

In fact to the best of my knowledge not one incident of a dangerous situation involving cellphone use has ever been reported. There is TCs claim that they know about many non reported incidents but no description of these incidents and just a "take our word for it it's dangerous" attitude. In addition what literature is out there is exceedingly vague on what a cellphone interference incident looks like. What actually happens?

The most real threat appears to be (from what i can find) false warning indications triggered by rfi. If this is what the ban is based on then it is extremely misguided. A false warning is not a dangerous situation. Repeated false warnings are, a single one is not. If false warnings were severally being created by cellphones, obviously they would have to be banned, or dealt with in some way. But does this happen? As far as i know, no.

Got any more links anyone? Are there reports or details of actual cellphone interference? Or of demonstrations? Or of any portable electronic device commonly found on passengers?

[pushyboss]

Gee I wonder if I would mind my heart surgeon listening to Marilyn Manson on his headphones while performing my bypass?

I read all the posts here about pilots wanting more respect, wanting more money, wanting more of everything, and then I read that you want to listen to your MP3 player as well. Maybe we should hook your X-box up to the Multi-Function Dispay as well. A rousing round of Doom should take the monotony out of your work. I would hate to see your job get in the way of your entertainment.

Try working, paying attention, and maintaining superior situational awareness instead of viewing the cockpit as a liesure activity. I'm with Snowbear on this one.

[ScudRunner]

ahramin wrote

In fact to the best of my knowledge not one incident of a dangerous situation involving cellphone use has ever been reported.

I beg to differ a friend of my works for Bombardier. They had an incident in Sweden with SAS were someone left a cell phone on in there bag which was in the forward baggage in the Q400. I forget exactly what it did but something such as the navigaiton system reseting or something on approach but luckly it was a VFR day. They istalled new shielding but this could have been a disaster for the newly released Q400 at the time.

And off the top of my head i recall another accident in Switzerland where a cell interfeared with the approach in IMC, the Aircraft crashed and the cellphone was a factor.

On a more personal note, I was using my computer when the screen went all blurred and joggled around. then my cell sitting beside the screen went off and the computer screen would blurr evertime it rang. Cells wont effect old school aircraft but in a new EFIS glass cockpit I would keep the phone off.