Carbon tax announced December 2020

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Tiberius
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Tiberius »

digits_ wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:22 am
Tiberius wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:13 am
Which is it: are they not making enough, or are they making enough and being stupid?

Do you think people working minimum wage jobs do so by choice? Do you think they would stay working at Tim Hortons for example if there was a viable alternative?
It's both. They're not making enough to pay for the stupid decisions they made.

I think the people who do minimum wage jobs fall into 2 groups. There are the smart ones who are doing it temporarily. Perhaps they're in school, or perhaps they are saving up. Either way, it's only a stepping stone into bigger and better things to come later. Then there are the dumb people who think it Tim Hortens is a career. Those are the ones who who will ask for the handout once that first kid arrives.

There are viable alternatives to Tim Hortens, but I've often found that a lot of people don't want those sort of jobs.
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gtappl
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by gtappl »

Tiberius wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:13 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:59 am
Tiberius wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:44 am
[/b]
1) The guy in the interview was working, so I wouldn't call him lazy. Being poor and working a minimum wage is not the same as someone allegedly abusing disability.
2) If you are working a full time job, why shouldn't you be able to raise a family? Would you support a policy in which only the rich are allowed to have kids?
1. Agreed, not lazy. The people on disability do not work, which is why they are on disability. I have no problem paying disability for someone who is legitimately disabled, but there are people who are not and claim it anyway.

2. I think minimum wage should be renamed to "bachelor wage". Having kids that you clearly can't afford puts someone under a lot of financial pressure. 100% of your income gets eaten up by your expenses if you are on minimum wage with 3 kids, meaning you have little to nothing left over to invest in and/or improve yourself or earning potential. That's why poor people stay poor. It's not because they don't make enough it's because they make stupid decisions. They then complain and seek assistance from elsewhere, meaning that productive people (what you'd probably call "rich people") who didn't make dumb decisions will then end up having to subsidize them.
Why do YOU get to decide who is disabled enough? From what I've heard every ODSP claim is first rejected, and you have to appeal.

I know a guy whose wife died of Cancer, he had to end up taking a minimum wage job because that's the only one that was flexible enough for him to take care of his 2 kids, I don't doubt there are people who fucked up but a lot of people on minimum wage are victims of circumstance.
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digits_
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by digits_ »

I think a lot if people are a lot closer to minimum wage jobs or welfare than they would like (me included). All it takes is one unlucky accident that might even be completely out of your control, that would make you lose your medical, or disable you or one of your close family members. It won't take long to ruin you or alter your circumstances such that a min wage job might be your only option. I would want any full time job to pay enough to survive. And yes, some empathy for people who are in such a situation.

If we go even darker, what would happen if you crash a plane with 10 kids on board, or even worse, make an emergency landing in a daycare center, working for a crappy operator? Trial by media... Look how they reacted to an accident with a bus and a truck, now replace the bus by a Dirty Airplane...
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Mostly Harmless
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Mostly Harmless »

Taxation: Some tax needs to be paid to create the civilization we live in. Roads, lights, water, etc. Take too much tax and the system collapses. By the way, taxes are for public goods and services, not for punishing people.

It's a balancing act. The more tax you take from me, the less I can save for retirement and the less I can spend to stimulate the economy and create jobs which makes me more reliant on the government to survive. The more I have to rely on the government, the more money the government needs in order to support me and everyone else and that means they have to apply more taxes. The more taxes they apply, the less I can save for retirement and the less I can spend to stimulate the economy and create jobs which makes me more reliant on the government to survive. The more I have to rely on the government, the more money the government needs in order to support me and that means they have to apply more taxes.

It's the economic equivalent of a spiral dive that results in the entire country going into the ground. Those with money will use it to parachute out to the safety of another country and those without money are going to ride it all the way down. You can't redistribute wealth evenly because it just doesn't work and history has shown that multiple times over. The trick is to find a balance where we look after the vulnerable while allowing people to become self sufficient through the growth of wealth.
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AngelsSang
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by AngelsSang »

Inverted2 wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:00 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:42 pm I'm in no way a Trudeau fan, but he's right on this issue.
Right on what? Making it unaffordable for people to drive or heat their homes? Or bring in hundreds of thousands more immigrants a year which leads to more cars and pollution? It’s just a tax grab, not going to change anything except drain the wallets of taxpayers when many are barely making it.

If you’re employed in the aviation industry you should be dead agains Trudopes carbon taxes.

This is a great post!
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AngelsSang
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by AngelsSang »

No tax dollars should be leaving Canada, for any reason. Spend it all in Canada, helping repair our roads, infrastructure, etc. Then lower taxes slowly over time, because we have fixed up things at home, instead of sending money to other countries.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by JeppsOnFire »

digits_ wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:59 am
Tiberius wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:44 am I remember when they were talking about increasing minimum wage a few years ago. A guy on the news with 3 kids working at MacDonald's said and I quote “You can’t raise a family on minimum wage”. And I’m thinking to myself, stupid you’re not supposed to raise a family on minimum wage. This and dozens of people I’ve come across who were clearly able-bodied but on disability; lazy people are the primary voting block in Canada.
1) The guy in the interview was working, so I wouldn't call him lazy. Being poor and working a minimum wage is not the same as someone allegedly abusing disability.
2) If you are working a full time job, why shouldn't you be able to raise a family? Would you support a policy in which only the rich are allowed to have kids?
As per point 2 - you believe that any full time job should support the lifestyle of my choice?
People truly seem to be at a loss when it comes to understanding personal responsibility. Yes, I’m aware that term is archaic and when certain people see it produces the involuntary condescending eye roll or sharp exhale. Let’s try to avoid listing a litany of exceptions and what-ifs - that is a different issue. We are talking about the general rule.
This questionable thinking is evident when people talk about the rich. You are aware that most of the 1% are older people, right? Like those people who have worked their entire lives and made intelligent financial choices along the way. Are you aware that 37% of current American millionaires never reached a household income of $100K during their working lives. Household. And yes, they’re old.
My parents had no money so when I was starting out I shovelled a lot of shit for minimum wage. Then, I wanted to do more with my life so I shovelled more shit. Then I shovelled shit 70hrs a week. I lived on nothing while I shovelled shit. I lived on nothing and I saved the extra shit shovelling money. Then I took my knowledge and started a shit shovelling company while I went to school. You honestly wouldn’t believe how much shit I shovelled while my friends had nice cars and vacations and weekend fun. I’m no hero. I just worked hard at a unpleasant job and lived on less than I made and did not feel entitled to have a lifestyle I couldn’t afford.

It was worth it for the way I get to live my life today. I would do it again.

Also - I know you still disagree with my take on minimum wage. It’s ok.
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digits_
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by digits_ »

JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:04 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:59 am 2) If you are working a full time job, why shouldn't you be able to raise a family? Would you support a policy in which only the rich are allowed to have kids?
As per point 2 - you believe that any full time job should support the lifestyle of my choice?
Where do I say that?

If you consider a lifestyle in which you like to eat 3 times a day, have a safe home and be able to raise a kid, then sure, describe it that way.

We're not talking about buying nice cars, owning big houses or dressing up in designer clothes.

I believe that any full time job should allow you to afford a safe place to live within a reasonable travel distance as to where that job is located. Most people consider having a child a basic human right. It is, after all, our biological purpose: to reproduce. So yes, a minimum wage job should make that possible.

To further expand on your shit shoveling example. You started making good money when you started your own shit shoveling company. A lot of people working minimum wage jobs do not have the skills or knowledge to start their own company. It's also worth noting, that if *everyone* started shoveling shit and started shit shoveling companies, yours most likely would not have been succesful.

If your "plan" or "solution" as to how to get out of minimum wage jobs, can not possibly be applied to everyone, then it is not an actual solution.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by JeppsOnFire »

digits_ wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:14 am
JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:04 am
digits_ wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:59 am 2) If you are working a full time job, why shouldn't you be able to raise a family? Would you support a policy in which only the rich are allowed to have kids?
As per point 2 - you believe that any full time job should support the lifestyle of my choice?
Where do I say that?

If you consider a lifestyle in which you like to eat 3 times a day, have a safe home and be able to raise a kid, then sure, describe it that way.

We're not talking about buying nice cars, owning big houses or dressing up in designer clothes.

I believe that any full time job should allow you to afford a safe place to live within a reasonable travel distance as to where that job is located. Most people consider having a child a basic human right. It is, after all, our biological purpose: to reproduce. So yes, a minimum wage job should make that possible.

To further expand on your shit shoveling example. You started making good money when you started your own shit shoveling company. A lot of people working minimum wage jobs do not have the skills or knowledge to start their own company. It's also worth noting, that if *everyone* started shoveling shit and started shit shoveling companies, yours most likely would not have been succesful.

If your "plan" or "solution" as to how to get out of minimum wage jobs, can not possibly be applied to everyone, then it is not an actual solution.
Minimum wage offered me a safe place to live and transportation and I ate more than 3 times a day - you have to eat a lot when you shovel shit. Would it be a wise choice, in the midst of that season of life to knock up my girlfriend?

Did I say I made good money when I started the company? I lost money while I learned how to run a business. I shovelled a bunch of shit for free while I learned those lessons.
Also - did I say that my route is the only solution? Does every generation have the same opportunities? Obviously not. But Uber wasn’t around back then. Programming was in its infancy. Investing was left to ‘professionals’ that skimmed from the top.
Minimum wage jobs are intended as either a starting point to build on or supplemental to a primary income. If you want more out of life it likely won’t happen by accident.
The point I made is that your lifestyle must match your income. If that income is minimum wage, your lifestyle will look like mine did until you either move up the income chain yourself, or team up with someone in life and make a concerted effort in changing your station.
I know you’re thinking that it’s impossible, but that’s just not true. I’m not the exception. I know 4 people today who cannot, for the life of them, in a pandemic, find people to shovel shit for them. And my sample size is relatively small.

Lastly - very few solutions in any area of life are universal. Asking for a one-size-fits-all approach? If that’s what you believe you have a lot to learn about human behaviour and money.
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gtappl
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by gtappl »

AngelsSang wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:36 pm No tax dollars should be leaving Canada, for any reason. Spend it all in Canada, helping repair our roads, infrastructure, etc. Then lower taxes slowly over time, because we have fixed up things at home, instead of sending money to other countries.
This screams I don't understand how the world stage works.
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digits_
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by digits_ »

JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am
Minimum wage jobs are intended as either a starting point to build on or supplemental to a primary income. If you want more out of life it likely won’t happen by accident.
Are they? Says who? It seems like that is what they have turned into, but I doubt that's what the intention is.

My reasoning is as follows:
1) There is a group of people in society that are unable to progress from a minimum wage job, for reasons that are, realistically, outside of their control. People who do not have the skills, education, personality or wits to secure another job.
2) The group in 1) does work full time.
3) I consider having a child a basic human right.
4) Someone who works full time for society, deserves to have his human rights met
5) From 2-3-4 ===> A minimum wage job should allow you to support a child

JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am The point I made is that your lifestyle must match your income.
Yes, but there is a minimum standard to that lifestyle that you can realistically expect that every member of society has access to.
Clean water, food, shelter, electricity, and to me, the ability to procreate.

If you want to sacrifice one of those things temporarily, in order to get into a better position later in life, then that is your choice and your right. But I do not think it is acceptable to make that mandatory. The lowest common level of lifestyle, at any time in your life, should allow you to provide for the basics. If you want to work 70 hours/week to get ahead, that's your choice. You can not expect everyone who is already working full time, to work more for the rest of their life to get a reasonable wage.

JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am If that income is minimum wage, your lifestyle will look like mine did until you either move up the income chain yourself, or team up with someone in life and make a concerted effort in changing your station.
I know you’re thinking that it’s impossible, but that’s just not true. I’m not the exception. I know 4 people today who cannot, for the life of them, in a pandemic, find people to shovel shit for them. And my sample size is relatively small.

Lastly - very few solutions in any area of life are universal. Asking for a one-size-fits-all approach? If that’s what you believe you have a lot to learn about human behaviour and money.
You claim that a minimum wage job is supposed to be temporariy. That also implies that eventually, everyone should have the option to move out of a minimum wage job. How do you suggest someone with limited intelligence or limited physical abilities does that?

And, to rephrase what I said earlier: if every minimum wage employee would have the capabilities and the will to move on to another higher paying job, those jobs would either get scarcer, making it harder for you to achieve it, or they would simply lower the pay so it would become a new minimum wage job. The chances of you succesfully moving on, would get much slimmer if more people would succeed in moving on.

To "get ahead", other people will, by the very definition, be left behind.

It is impossible for everyone to move out of minimum wage jobs. The least we can do as a society is make sure that the people who are "left behind" have the option to live a normal life, worthy of the 21st century.
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JeppsOnFire
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by JeppsOnFire »

digits_ wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:26 am
JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am
Minimum wage jobs are intended as either a starting point to build on or supplemental to a primary income. If you want more out of life it likely won’t happen by accident.
Are they? Says who? It seems like that is what they have turned into, but I doubt that's what the intention is.

My reasoning is as follows:
1) There is a group of people in society that are unable to progress from a minimum wage job, for reasons that are, realistically, outside of their control. People who do not have the skills, education, personality or wits to secure another job.
2) The group in 1) does work full time.
3) I consider having a child a basic human right.
4) Someone who works full time for society, deserves to have his human rights met
5) From 2-3-4 ===> A minimum wage job should allow you to support a child

JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am The point I made is that your lifestyle must match your income.
Yes, but there is a minimum standard to that lifestyle that you can realistically expect that every member of society has access to.
Clean water, food, shelter, electricity, and to me, the ability to procreate.

If you want to sacrifice one of those things temporarily, in order to get into a better position later in life, then that is your choice and your right. But I do not think it is acceptable to make that mandatory. The lowest common level of lifestyle, at any time in your life, should allow you to provide for the basics. If you want to work 70 hours/week to get ahead, that's your choice. You can not expect everyone who is already working full time, to work more for the rest of their life to get a reasonable wage.

JeppsOnFire wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:45 am If that income is minimum wage, your lifestyle will look like mine did until you either move up the income chain yourself, or team up with someone in life and make a concerted effort in changing your station.
I know you’re thinking that it’s impossible, but that’s just not true. I’m not the exception. I know 4 people today who cannot, for the life of them, in a pandemic, find people to shovel shit for them. And my sample size is relatively small.

Lastly - very few solutions in any area of life are universal. Asking for a one-size-fits-all approach? If that’s what you believe you have a lot to learn about human behaviour and money.
You claim that a minimum wage job is supposed to be temporariy. That also implies that eventually, everyone should have the option to move out of a minimum wage job. How do you suggest someone with limited intelligence or limited physical abilities does that?

And, to rephrase what I said earlier: if every minimum wage employee would have the capabilities and the will to move on to another higher paying job, those jobs would either get scarcer, making it harder for you to achieve it, or they would simply lower the pay so it would become a new minimum wage job. The chances of you succesfully moving on, would get much slimmer if more people would succeed in moving on.

To "get ahead", other people will, by the very definition, be left behind.

It is impossible for everyone to move out of minimum wage jobs. The least we can do as a society is make sure that the people who are "left behind" have the option to live a normal life, worthy of the 21st century.

I am trying to tell you we’re talking about the rule. When I have this conversation the other person, invariably, brings up the exception. I believe in other social safety nets for the outliers due to disability. Assured income for those people. That is something else.

You understand that the job market keeps growing with population? That people get older and retire? That working parents leave the workforce to raise children? Under your logic, every single day the job market gets smaller until there are no jobs.

Some people choose minimum wage jobs, it’s true. Some feel stuck there. I’m actually posting here because I had a conversation recently with someone in that position. They felt stuck in a minimum wage job. We talked at length about it and they wanted to hear my honest view. I said the same thing I am saying here. That person, in a course of a month changed their life. Got honest with themselves about their situation. Became intentional about life and money. Worked more, spent less. In such a short period of time they’ve been able to save a few hundred dollars and put a breath between themselves and their bills. More importantly, they’re committed to doing more with their life and I believe they will.

I do hear what you’re saying. I do. I just believe something else. Because I’ve lived it and I see others living it too.
I accept many fall through the cracks but I strongly believe education and the support of community goes much further than an extra $2/hr.

That’s all I have to say about that. I think this thread was about carbon tax anyways. Cheers to your success digits_.
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Last edited by JeppsOnFire on Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tiberius
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Tiberius »

This is an interesting discussion, but I came across something today that should put things into perspective.

There are 2 single mothers at my office. Each has a son around the same age, roughly 8 or 9 years old. Each of these ladies are receiving child support.

The first mother, lets call her Alice, works a full time position with my company and rent a modest apartment in town. She also works as an uber driver and has a side hustle selling pottery on Etsy. She also does a bit of work on the side for her parent’s business. She’s not on any sort of assistance whatsoever with exception of a small stipend from the government to help pay for her son’s therapy, as he has a disability.

The second mother, lets call her Jeannette, lives in a subsidized 3 bedroom single detached house. Her rent is equivalent to that of a small barley legal bachelor apartment for 1 person on the odd side town, approximately $1000 a month, not including utilities. In addition to the salary she pulls down from her full time position at my company, she is enrolled in a myriad of government programs and receives an additional income equating to about $4200 a month.

How I do know all this? Well clearly, Alice was the one who told me about Jeanette; Jeanette, who was quoted as saying she plays up the “single-mother thing” to get all this money. Some additional perspective, Jeanette isn’t really good at her job and is looking forward to another lock-down where she wont have to work. She also doesn’t grasp economics or the implications of, and I quote, “just let them print more money”.

So what is the take away here? The point is, relating to taxes, the carbon tax, etc., is that there are too many Jeannettes in this country (and Tyrones for that matter). People who have no shame, no second thoughts about OTHER people paying for their life-mistakes. Children are not an entitlement or a right, they’re a responsibility, and I don’t see how any reasonable parent chooses to have a child without factoring in how they will support that child financially, and/or without positioning themselves to do so accordingly.

Now this got a little off topic with minimum wage. The point with minimum wage had to do with mentality of certain people and how it relates to Carbon taxes. Too many people get emotional on these subjects but we’re talking about money. And money doesn’t care one way or the other. It’s not impossible to come up from minimum wage so as long as you don’t make dumb decisions. Simple math. You either make more, or you spend less, or you do both and with the surplus, you invest.

When I was young, I used to make minimum wage when it was about $8 to 10 per hour. My rent was $400 - $500 a month for a small bedroom in a shared house with 5 other tenants. There were no trips down south, no living it up at the club with bottles of Crystal or Hennessey. And Hell, definitely no girlfriend back then either, at least in the earlier years. If there was a night I wasn’t working, it was some beer, chicken wings and a movie. I bought my clothes at Walmart and sometimes even Giant Tiger. I used to steal napkins and packets of salt and ketchup from MacDonalds. There was barley any points in my 20’s when I didn’t have less than 2 jobs. But I made a simple budget with a simple formula: 1/3 rent, 1/3 expenses, 1/3 savings. Any surpluses from overtime or extra hours got put into savings. When I had enough in the bank, I did some training. Learned a trade (in construction), got a better job with better pay, I learned what I could, moved up the ladder, and I kept working with same formula. Wash, rinse repeat. Now, with a degree and a diploma later, (and no debt) and some years working in consulting, I’m not doing too bad, not bad at all. I wouldn’t be where I am today if I had a kid, or if I didn’t make sacrifices.

Now I see there is a ‘stuff-happens’ factor that a lot of people point out and I think that where some of you get emotional because there’s some personal relevance in it for you. In understand, I worked with an ailment through my 20’s which required extensive surgery by my late 20’s. But I learned 1 thing in that time: no one cares, do not bank on the sympathy of others to get by in life. Stuff happens and you’re on an island by yourself with no rescue or reprieve, so it’s up to you and you alone.

I don’t think anyone would disagree that there shouldn’t be a safety net, but it is meant to be temporary. Clearly there are people who abuse it for no other reason than they can and they don’t care. Those are the voters now. When you factor these type of people into the equation, there is no choice but to institute a large onerous tax on the working population and with no measurable end or outcome.

Welcome to Canada in 2021.
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by AngelsSang »

gtappl wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:22 am
AngelsSang wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:36 pm No tax dollars should be leaving Canada, for any reason. Spend it all in Canada, helping repair our roads, infrastructure, etc. Then lower taxes slowly over time, because we have fixed up things at home, instead of sending money to other countries.
This screams I don't understand how the world stage works.

So smart guy, tell me why it is so vital to send my tax dollars to other countries then? I am waiting!
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gtappl
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by gtappl »

AngelsSang wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:05 pm
gtappl wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:22 am
AngelsSang wrote: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:36 pm No tax dollars should be leaving Canada, for any reason. Spend it all in Canada, helping repair our roads, infrastructure, etc. Then lower taxes slowly over time, because we have fixed up things at home, instead of sending money to other countries.
This screams I don't understand how the world stage works.

So smart guy, tell me why it is so vital to send my tax dollars to other countries then? I am waiting!
We play on a world stage so good image is important for things like trade deals. Wars are bad for everyone. Canadians are generally pretty giving as well so we'd rather give a bit of aid now to prevent a war or crisis down the road.

Lastly we do have countries that don't work in our favor, most of the world has ignored Africa and now China basically owns the continent
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by AngelsSang »

gtappl wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:13 pm
AngelsSang wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:05 pm
gtappl wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:22 am

This screams I don't understand how the world stage works.

So smart guy, tell me why it is so vital to send my tax dollars to other countries then? I am waiting!
We play on a world stage so good image is important for things like trade deals. Wars are bad for everyone. Canadians are generally pretty giving as well so we'd rather give a bit of aid now to prevent a war or crisis down the road.

Lastly we do have countries that don't work in our favor, most of the world has ignored Africa and now China basically owns the continent

That is a really stupid reason! Who gives a shit what other countries think. And sending them billions of dollars while we have MASSIVE DEBT, crumbling roads, failing water and sewer systems, homeless, and a lot more problems here at home, is beyond stupid. Don't give money to bullies, tell them to F off.
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Tiberius
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Tiberius »

With regard to foreign aid, I prefer the Trump approach: Bet your ass we better be getting something out of it.

But for those of you who have this "we are the world" mentality, let me explain something to you.

If I take out a million dollar loan, does that make me a millionaire? Hell no. It makes me a jerk with a million dollars worth of debt and someone who wont lend you a cent of it because clearly, that money needs to be invested in capital. Not given away for you to piss about on nonsense. Canada is not a rich country by any means we don't have money to waste on foreign aid.

Who am I kidding?...Most of you don't know what capital is.

Good luck paying for your flying lessons.
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Rockie »

Tiberius wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:56 pm With regard to foreign aid, I prefer the Trump approach: Bet your ass we better be getting something out of it.

But for those of you who have this "we are the world" mentality, let me explain something to you.

If I take out a million dollar loan, does that make me a millionaire? Hell no. It makes me a jerk with a million dollars worth of debt and someone who wont lend you a cent of it because clearly, that money needs to be invested in capital. Not given away for you to piss about on nonsense. Canada is not a rich country by any means we don't have money to waste on foreign aid.

Who am I kidding?...Most of you don't know what capital is.

Good luck paying for your flying lessons.
The Trump approach to debt is to accumulate it then declare bankruptcy and stiff other people with the bill. You like that?
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Tiberius
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Tiberius »

Rockie wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:58 am
Tiberius wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:56 pm
The Trump approach to debt is to accumulate it then declare bankruptcy and stiff other people with the bill. You like that?
I don't understand the question. I was addressing foreign aid to other countries, not debt accumulation. How does one relate to the other?
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rookiepilot
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by rookiepilot »

Tiberius wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:19 pm This is an interesting discussion, but I came across something today that should put things into perspective.

There are 2 single mothers at my office. Each has a son around the same age, roughly 8 or 9 years old. Each of these ladies are receiving child support.

The first mother, lets call her Alice, works a full time position with my company and rent a modest apartment in town. She also works as an uber driver and has a side hustle selling pottery on Etsy. She also does a bit of work on the side for her parent’s business. She’s not on any sort of assistance whatsoever with exception of a small stipend from the government to help pay for her son’s therapy, as he has a disability.

The second mother, lets call her Jeannette, lives in a subsidized 3 bedroom single detached house. Her rent is equivalent to that of a small barley legal bachelor apartment for 1 person on the odd side town, approximately $1000 a month, not including utilities. In addition to the salary she pulls down from her full time position at my company, she is enrolled in a myriad of government programs and receives an additional income equating to about $4200 a month.

How I do know all this? Well clearly, Alice was the one who told me about Jeanette; Jeanette, who was quoted as saying she plays up the “single-mother thing” to get all this money. Some additional perspective, Jeanette isn’t really good at her job and is looking forward to another lock-down where she wont have to work. She also doesn’t grasp economics or the implications of, and I quote, “just let them print more money”.

So what is the take away here? The point is, relating to taxes, the carbon tax, etc., is that there are too many Jeannettes in this country (and Tyrones for that matter). People who have no shame, no second thoughts about OTHER people paying for their life-mistakes. Children are not an entitlement or a right, they’re a responsibility, and I don’t see how any reasonable parent chooses to have a child without factoring in how they will support that child financially, and/or without positioning themselves to do so accordingly.

Now this got a little off topic with minimum wage. The point with minimum wage had to do with mentality of certain people and how it relates to Carbon taxes. Too many people get emotional on these subjects but we’re talking about money. And money doesn’t care one way or the other. It’s not impossible to come up from minimum wage so as long as you don’t make dumb decisions. Simple math. You either make more, or you spend less, or you do both and with the surplus, you invest.

When I was young, I used to make minimum wage when it was about $8 to 10 per hour. My rent was $400 - $500 a month for a small bedroom in a shared house with 5 other tenants. There were no trips down south, no living it up at the club with bottles of Crystal or Hennessey. And Hell, definitely no girlfriend back then either, at least in the earlier years. If there was a night I wasn’t working, it was some beer, chicken wings and a movie. I bought my clothes at Walmart and sometimes even Giant Tiger. I used to steal napkins and packets of salt and ketchup from MacDonalds. There was barley any points in my 20’s when I didn’t have less than 2 jobs. But I made a simple budget with a simple formula: 1/3 rent, 1/3 expenses, 1/3 savings. Any surpluses from overtime or extra hours got put into savings. When I had enough in the bank, I did some training. Learned a trade (in construction), got a better job with better pay, I learned what I could, moved up the ladder, and I kept working with same formula. Wash, rinse repeat. Now, with a degree and a diploma later, (and no debt) and some years working in consulting, I’m not doing too bad, not bad at all. I wouldn’t be where I am today if I had a kid, or if I didn’t make sacrifices.

Now I see there is a ‘stuff-happens’ factor that a lot of people point out and I think that where some of you get emotional because there’s some personal relevance in it for you. In understand, I worked with an ailment through my 20’s which required extensive surgery by my late 20’s. But I learned 1 thing in that time: no one cares, do not bank on the sympathy of others to get by in life. Stuff happens and you’re on an island by yourself with no rescue or reprieve, so it’s up to you and you alone.

I don’t think anyone would disagree that there shouldn’t be a safety net, but it is meant to be temporary. Clearly there are people who abuse it for no other reason than they can and they don’t care. Those are the voters now. When you factor these type of people into the equation, there is no choice but to institute a large onerous tax on the working population and with no measurable end or outcome.

Welcome to Canada in 2021.
It's gonna get real interesting down the road.
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gtappl
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by gtappl »

AngelsSang wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:47 pm
gtappl wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:13 pm
AngelsSang wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:05 pm


So smart guy, tell me why it is so vital to send my tax dollars to other countries then? I am waiting!
We play on a world stage so good image is important for things like trade deals. Wars are bad for everyone. Canadians are generally pretty giving as well so we'd rather give a bit of aid now to prevent a war or crisis down the road.

Lastly we do have countries that don't work in our favor, most of the world has ignored Africa and now China basically owns the continent

That is a really stupid reason! Who gives a shit what other countries think. And sending them billions of dollars while we have MASSIVE DEBT, crumbling roads, failing water and sewer systems, homeless, and a lot more problems here at home, is beyond stupid. Don't give money to bullies, tell them to F off.
You think sort term and that's the problem. I'm not saying give money to China give it to small countries so we don't have to deal with world instability.

And if possible I'd rather not send cash over, we provide birth control stuff to Africa so populations don't explode. When we do this we support jobs here making the stuff so it's not like it's all being pissed away.
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Last edited by gtappl on Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
gtappl
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by gtappl »

Tiberius wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:56 pm With regard to foreign aid, I prefer the Trump approach: Bet your ass we better be getting something out of it.

But for those of you who have this "we are the world" mentality, let me explain something to you.

If I take out a million dollar loan, does that make me a millionaire? Hell no. It makes me a jerk with a million dollars worth of debt and someone who wont lend you a cent of it because clearly, that money needs to be invested in capital. Not given away for you to piss about on nonsense. Canada is not a rich country by any means we don't have money to waste on foreign aid.

Who am I kidding?...Most of you don't know what capital is.

Good luck paying for your flying lessons.
@#$! off, I think all life has value, and I paid for all my licenses and ratings out of pocket, with no debt.
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Dh8Classic
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Dh8Classic »

Getting back to climate change/carbon tax:

"Here is Dr. Patrick Moore's description of his unique thesis as presented in "Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom".

"It dawned on me one day that most of the scare stories in the media today are based on things that are either invisible, like CO2 and radiation, or very remote, like polar bears and coral reefs. Thus, the average person cannot observe and verify the truth of these claims for themselves. They must rely on activists, the media, politicians, and scientists - all of whom have a huge financial and/or political interest in the subject - to tell them the truth. This is my effort, after 50 years as a scientist and environmental activist, to expose the misinformation and outright lies used to scare us and our children about the future of the Earth. Direct observation is the very basis of science. Without verified observation it is not possible to know the truth. That is the sharp focus of this book."

The book contains 98 color photographs, illustrations, and charts. A key target audience is parents who do not approve of the "progressive" school curriculum and its alarmism about the future of civilization and the natural world. Dr. Moore hopes these parents will read his book and pass it on to their high-school and older children to give them an alternative to the bleak future predicted by the prophets of doom. Many other audiences will also find the book informative and convincing.

In 11 chapters the reader is clearly shown that citizens are being misinformed by many environmental doomsday prophesies, ones they cannot verify for themselves. We are told that nuclear energy is very dangerous when the numbers prove it is one of the safest technologies. We are told polar bears will go extinct soon when their population has been growing steadily for nearly 50 years. We are told that there is something harmful in genetically modified food crops when it is invisible, has no name and no chemical formula. We are told severe forest fires are caused by climate change when they are actually caused by poor management of fuel load (dead wood) in the forest. We are told that all the coral reefs will die by 2100 when in fact the most diverse coral reefs are found in the warmest oceans in the world. And of course, we are told that invisible CO2 from using fossil fuels, accounting for more than 80 percent of our energy supply, will make the Earth too hot for life. All of these scare stories, and many more, are simply not true. And this book will convince you, your family, and your colleagues of that. There is no substitute for the truth."
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Rockie
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by Rockie »

Dh8Classic wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:57 pm Getting back to climate change/carbon tax:

"Here is Dr. Patrick Moore's description of his unique thesis as presented in "Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom"."
Greenpeace offers a rebuttal (with references) to some of this gentleman’s claims.

https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/news/gre ... on-patric/
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Re: Carbon tax announced December 2020

Post by tsgarp »

Tiberius wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:19 pm This is an interesting discussion, but I came across something today that should put things into perspective.

There are 2 single mothers at my office. Each has a son around the same age, roughly 8 or 9 years old. Each of these ladies are receiving child support.

The first mother, lets call her Alice, works a full time position with my company and rent a modest apartment in town. She also works as an uber driver and has a side hustle selling pottery on Etsy. She also does a bit of work on the side for her parent’s business. She’s not on any sort of assistance whatsoever with exception of a small stipend from the government to help pay for her son’s therapy, as he has a disability.

The second mother, lets call her Jeannette, lives in a subsidized 3 bedroom single detached house. Her rent is equivalent to that of a small barley legal bachelor apartment for 1 person on the odd side town, approximately $1000 a month, not including utilities. In addition to the salary she pulls down from her full time position at my company, she is enrolled in a myriad of government programs and receives an additional income equating to about $4200 a month.

How I do know all this? Well clearly, Alice was the one who told me about Jeanette; Jeanette, who was quoted as saying she plays up the “single-mother thing” to get all this money. Some additional perspective, Jeanette isn’t really good at her job and is looking forward to another lock-down where she wont have to work. She also doesn’t grasp economics or the implications of, and I quote, “just let them print more money”.

So what is the take away here? The point is, relating to taxes, the carbon tax, etc., is that there are too many Jeannettes in this country (and Tyrones for that matter). People who have no shame, no second thoughts about OTHER people paying for their life-mistakes. Children are not an entitlement or a right, they’re a responsibility, and I don’t see how any reasonable parent chooses to have a child without factoring in how they will support that child financially, and/or without positioning themselves to do so accordingly.

Now this got a little off topic with minimum wage. The point with minimum wage had to do with mentality of certain people and how it relates to Carbon taxes. Too many people get emotional on these subjects but we’re talking about money. And money doesn’t care one way or the other. It’s not impossible to come up from minimum wage so as long as you don’t make dumb decisions. Simple math. You either make more, or you spend less, or you do both and with the surplus, you invest.

When I was young, I used to make minimum wage when it was about $8 to 10 per hour. My rent was $400 - $500 a month for a small bedroom in a shared house with 5 other tenants. There were no trips down south, no living it up at the club with bottles of Crystal or Hennessey. And Hell, definitely no girlfriend back then either, at least in the earlier years. If there was a night I wasn’t working, it was some beer, chicken wings and a movie. I bought my clothes at Walmart and sometimes even Giant Tiger. I used to steal napkins and packets of salt and ketchup from MacDonalds. There was barley any points in my 20’s when I didn’t have less than 2 jobs. But I made a simple budget with a simple formula: 1/3 rent, 1/3 expenses, 1/3 savings. Any surpluses from overtime or extra hours got put into savings. When I had enough in the bank, I did some training. Learned a trade (in construction), got a better job with better pay, I learned what I could, moved up the ladder, and I kept working with same formula. Wash, rinse repeat. Now, with a degree and a diploma later, (and no debt) and some years working in consulting, I’m not doing too bad, not bad at all. I wouldn’t be where I am today if I had a kid, or if I didn’t make sacrifices.

Now I see there is a ‘stuff-happens’ factor that a lot of people point out and I think that where some of you get emotional because there’s some personal relevance in it for you. In understand, I worked with an ailment through my 20’s which required extensive surgery by my late 20’s. But I learned 1 thing in that time: no one cares, do not bank on the sympathy of others to get by in life. Stuff happens and you’re on an island by yourself with no rescue or reprieve, so it’s up to you and you alone.

I don’t think anyone would disagree that there shouldn’t be a safety net, but it is meant to be temporary. Clearly there are people who abuse it for no other reason than they can and they don’t care. Those are the voters now. When you factor these type of people into the equation, there is no choice but to institute a large onerous tax on the working population and with no measurable end or outcome.

Welcome to Canada in 2021.
I like you.
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