PTR defination

[Skymark]

Is there a document which defines what needs to be in a PTR? There is no information in the CARS. There is for personal logbooks, but not the PTR.

[photofly]

405.33 (1) A person who conducts flight training for the issuance of a private pilot licence, a commercial pilot licence or a flight instructor rating — aeroplane or helicopter shall, for each trainee, maintain a pilot training record that meets the personnel licensing standards.

425.33:
A pilot training record includes:
(a) form 26-0313 for aeroplane training or form 26-0316 for helicopter training, produced by the Minister; or
(b) a record that includes all items in the applicable form in paragraph (a).
(amended 2000/09/01)



26-0313 is the printed PTR.

[gustind]

Great question!

I've e-mailed TC Publications about this one about a year ago, no such document or book exists in their database. Transport Canada does not publish a form 26-0313.

[photofly]

Transport Canada doesn't publish one, correct. But VIPPilot does:

IMG_1036.jpeg (127.62 KiB) Viewed 2961 times

[Skymark]

Yes, Transport Canada does not publish a form 26-0313, but the CARS say you need a form 26-0313..... I'd rather have TC definition of what form 26-0313 is, not a third party's version. Can I just create any form and call it 26-0313 and fulfill the CARS requirement? Seem's a catch 22; TC says you need one, but TC doesn't say what one is.
I also like how CARS 425.33 (b) just says you need what's defined in (a) but (a) doesn't define anything.

[digits_]

Yes, Transport Canada does not publish a form 26-0313, but the CARS say you need a form 26-0313..... I'd rather have TC definition of what form 26-0313 is, not a third party's version. Can I just create any form and call it 26-0313 and fulfill the CARS requirement? Seem's a catch 22; TC says you need one, but TC doesn't say what one is.
I also like how CARS 425.33 (b) just says you need what's defined in (a) but (a) doesn't define anything.

Once could wonder if the PTR by vip pilot is "produced by the minister". If not, it doesn't qualify to satisfy 425.33 (a)

[Skymark]

Once could wonder if the PTR by vip pilot is "produced by the minister". If not, it doesn't qualify to satisfy 425.33 (a)

Exactly! Seems "the minister" needs to define the document to which they are referring.

[photofly]

Yes, Transport Canada does not publish a form 26-0313, but the CARS say you need a form 26-0313..... I'd rather have TC definition of what form 26-0313 is, not a third party's version. Can I just create any form and call it 26-0313 and fulfill the CARS requirement? Seem's a catch 22; TC says you need one, but TC doesn't say what one is.
I also like how CARS 425.33 (b) just says you need what's defined in (a) but (a) doesn't define anything.

Once could wonder if the PTR by vip pilot is "produced by the minister". If not, it doesn't qualify to satisfy 425.33 (a)

I love sophistry as much as the next person, but does it make any practical difference?

Transport will accept any document as a PTR as long as it has the same information as the 26-0313 in it. That’s the book with the Government of Canada symbol on it, and the designation 26-0313. Regardless of who printed it. No, you can’t call your own document a 26-0313.

If you want to argue with TC licensing about what they should accept or not, you’re welcome to, but if they throw your documentation back at you it’s going to be a couple of years until the hearing and you’ll be without the licence for all that time.

[digits_]

Yes, Transport Canada does not publish a form 26-0313, but the CARS say you need a form 26-0313..... I'd rather have TC definition of what form 26-0313 is, not a third party's version. Can I just create any form and call it 26-0313 and fulfill the CARS requirement? Seem's a catch 22; TC says you need one, but TC doesn't say what one is.
I also like how CARS 425.33 (b) just says you need what's defined in (a) but (a) doesn't define anything.

Once could wonder if the PTR by vip pilot is "produced by the minister". If not, it doesn't qualify to satisfy 425.33 (a)

I love sophistry as much as the next person, but does it make any practical difference?

No, it doesn't. I never claimed it did. I just find it interesting when a government agency screws up their own regulations.

Transport will accept any document as a PTR as long as it has the same information as the 26-0313 in it. That’s the book with the Government of Canada symbol on it, and the designation 26-0313. Regardless of who printed it. No, you can’t call your own document a 26-0313.

Why is VIP pilot allowed to print it, but I'm not? Is there any documentation that authorizes vip pilot to act on behalf of the minister? And if there is, can we, as good citizens, verify this?

Is a private company allowed to charge me to access a document I need to figure out how to comply with the regulations?

[Skymark]

The VIP book has a Canadian flag and the numbers 26-0313 on it. That doesn't make it a "Government of Canada symbol". I agree with digits, "Why is VIP pilot allowed to print it, but I'm not?" Where in the TC regs does it say want needs to be in the 26-0313 form? No where - that's the problem.

[gustind]

Here is my take on the situation.

I have asked Transport Canada in Ottawa about Form 26-0313. It doesn't exist. It is named in a regulation (standard to be exact) as something that is required, but no such form exists.

So, the layout, the way a PTR is filled out, the pages, the P's before D's then becomes subjective. No regulation says I have to write a P before a D. No regulation says I have to fill and sign the "Pre-Solo Checklist."

Transport will accept any document as a PTR as long as it has the same information as the 26-0313 in it.

No one knows what information form 26-0313 has in it because the form does not exist.

Why is VIP pilot allowed to print it, but I'm not?

Electronic PTRs. Fill out a spreadsheet, print it off. TC will accept it.


As far as I'm concerned, you could legally write flight times down on napkins, staple them together at the end of training and call it form 26-0313.

[Conflicting Traffic]

I agree with digits, "Why is VIP pilot allowed to print it, but I'm not?"

Who says you're not?

Where in the TC regs does it say want needs to be in the 26-0313 form? No where - that's the problem.

Note that the CAR425.33 was amended on 2000/09/01. IIRC, TC did in fact produce "form 26-0313" (i.e. - the PTR) at that time. The fact that they don't any more might lead to some confusion, but the document still exists and can be either used directly or referenced to produce your own ("a record that includes all items in the applicable form in paragraph (a)").

[digits_]

but the document still exists

Do you have a link? Or a picture of the official document?

[Skymark]

Note that the CAR425.33 was amended on 2000/09/01. IIRC, TC did in fact produce "form 26-0313" (i.e. - the PTR) at that time. The fact that they don't any more might lead to some confusion, but the document still exists and can be either used directly or referenced to produce your own

I suspected that's what's happened. There was a form 26-0313 and the CARS were correct in referencing it. They stopped producing the form and the CARS were not updated. How can we find that old form? "the document still exists" where?

[200hr Wonder]

According to Transport them selves:

Pilot Training Records

In cases where a Pilot Training Record is required to be maintained pursuant to CAR Standard 425.33, the record may be the one obtained from Transport Canada or a record developed by your Flight Training Unit and approved which must be approved by Transport Canada.

In https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/public ... t-tp-12862

[photofly]

No, it doesn't. I never claimed it did. I just find it interesting when a government agency screws up their own regulations.

If this counted as a screwup, nothing would ever takeoff. You don't need to look nearly that deep if you're looking for regulations that don't make any sense or aren't clear.

Is a private company allowed to charge me to access a document I need to figure out how to comply with the regulations?

Yes. $3.95: https://www.vippilot.com/pilot-training ... plane-d800

If TC produced it it would be $129.63, and you'd not be able to get one within nine months of ordering it, so I think you should just suck it up in this instance

[ReserveTank]

No regulation says I have to write a P before a D

While that is technically true, it is in your best interest to be able to prove that you've complied with 405.31. I remember this being a hot audit item.

[Bede]

Is a private company allowed to charge me to access a document I need to figure out how to comply with the regulations?

Yes. $3.95: https://www.vippilot.com/pilot-training ... plane-d800

If TC produced it it would be $129.63, and you'd not be able to get one within nine months of ordering it, so I think you should just suck it up in this instance

[digits_]

No, it doesn't. I never claimed it did. I just find it interesting when a government agency screws up their own regulations.

If this counted as a screwup, nothing would ever takeoff. You don't need to look nearly that deep if you're looking for regulations that don't make any sense or aren't clear.

Is a private company allowed to charge me to access a document I need to figure out how to comply with the regulations?

Yes. $3.95: https://www.vippilot.com/pilot-training ... plane-d800

If TC produced it it would be $129.63, and you'd not be able to get one within nine months of ordering it, so I think you should just suck it up in this instance

You're probably right about that, but I'm still wondering how I can know that the PTR sold by vip pilot is indeed an official document. Okay, they put it on their own website. Is there a TC publication that can show me that what vip is telling me is correct?

There are a lot of regulations that are maybe a bit unclear, or weird, or don't make sense, but at least there is (always?) a way to comply with them. For this particular one, with the available information, you can't.

Don't you agree this is strange?

If anything, this just makes TC less trustworthy and is terrible for their authority. If everyone can just start publishing forms and call themselves the "industry standard", without any way for the buyer to verify those claims, you end up with a very fraud sensitive system.

Even a slow government agency should be able to sole this quickly by putting a scan of a PTR online and label it as that form. Then you have a reference, and everybody is happy and legal

[photofly]

I don't think there's an FTU in existence that has any difficulty spending $3.95 on a document that has the Government of Canada logo on it and the correct form number, and is called a PTR, and using it as such, without a shred of doubt as to what should or shouldn't be in it.

The Flight Training Manual for aeroplanes in English is TP1102E, but I still have to pay $20 for a copy, and how do I know someone isn't trying to make some money off me and publish something that isn't *the* flight training manual, unless Transport Canada lets me download a PDF (which they don't)?

Incidentally, the FTU has to have whatever it intends to use a PTR approved before getting an OC, so there's plenty of opportunity to check whatever document it is planning to use, whether it has the right form number on it or not, will pass.

[Skymark]

I don't think there's an FTU in existence that has any difficulty spending $3.95 on a document that has the Government of Canada logo on it and the correct form number, and is called a PTR, and using it as such, without a shred of doubt as to what should or shouldn't be in it.

But what if you won't want to use the VIP paper book? And it's not a "Government of Canada logo" that's on the VIP logbook, it's a Canadian flag and a number. Google what the "Government of Canada logo" is.
I have doubt what should be in the document as there is no TC reference that says what should be in it.

I first asked this as I have developed an online PTR, that's going to be used by my local school. So we won't be using the VIP logbook. I wanted to know what needs to be in the PTR to be sure the electronic PTR fulfills the TC requirements. I want to follow the TC requirements, not a third part vendor (VIP).

We've asked our TC person and they just referred back to the personal logbook requirements CAR, not the PTR requirements.

So I guess the conclusion is there is no official TC definition of a PTR to follow.

[photofly]

You’re making difficulties where there are none. What needs to be in the PTR is what’s in 26-0313. If you want to know what’s in 26-0313 and you don’t have one lying around you can buy one for $3.95 from VIPpilot, or a range of other publishers.

[gustind]

If you want to know what’s in 26-0313 and you don’t have one lying around you can buy one for $3.95 from VIPpilot, or a range of other publishers.

How do they know what is in 26-0313?

[NotDirty!]

If you want to know what’s in 26-0313 and you don’t have one lying around you can buy one for $3.95 from VIPpilot, or a range of other publishers.

How do they know what is in 26-0313?

They probably hung onto one of the old copies from when TC actually published them, and copied that

[Squaretail]

They probably hung onto one of the old copies from when TC actually published them, and copied that

After seeing this discussion I had to go looking, since I have a few of these artifacts for... reasons. It even had a receipt from TC, and they were $2.00 from sometime in the 90's. So with some adjustments for inflation, $3.95 is about right.