Potential Airline Bailout

[gtappl]

So we agree then! Both the Liberal party and Conservatives are bad for this country. I look forward for your support for the NDP or Green party in the next federal election.

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

There's a nearly endless list of people living in your head rent free it seems?

[Stinky]

Another bailout!

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN2A8239

[Dh8Classic]

So we agree then! Both the Liberal party and Conservatives are bad for this country. I look forward for your support for the NDP or Green party in the next federal election.

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

Don't believe me? Read this excerpt from O'Toole's platform:

Increasing competition: The best way to ensure that people are getting good quality at a fair price is to ensure that there is competition. Far too often in Canada, though, this is not the case. Our laws all too often protect big businesses and their highly paid executives at the expense of Canadian consumers. An O’Toole government will take steps to end this to make life more affordable:

A: Making big corporations compete. Canadians pay too much because too many of our big corporations are coddled and protected by a government that serves them more than it serves the people.

B: I will open airline and wireless services to foreign competition. Giving the Competition Bureau more teeth to go after anti-competitive behaviour, block mergers that reduce competition and have turned too many industries into oligopolies and break up companies that abuse their dominant market positions.

Maybe the AT merger would not happen then. Another monopoly. Foreign competition coming in means new airlines and new jobs. Sounds like something we could use right now. And there would probably be some sort of bailout. Don't expect any money from those taking advice from Greta. She might get upset again like her UN speech.

[gtappl]

According to you, the Cons want to break up airlines. The Liberals apparently want them to come as close as possible to ceasing to exist at all(except perhaps for truly essential purposes).

Don't worry, you'll vote for Greta's friend again, no doubt for other reasons.

Don't believe me? Read this excerpt from O'Toole's platform:

Increasing competition: The best way to ensure that people are getting good quality at a fair price is to ensure that there is competition. Far too often in Canada, though, this is not the case. Our laws all too often protect big businesses and their highly paid executives at the expense of Canadian consumers. An O’Toole government will take steps to end this to make life more affordable:

A: Making big corporations compete. Canadians pay too much because too many of our big corporations are coddled and protected by a government that serves them more than it serves the people.

B: I will open airline and wireless services to foreign competition. Giving the Competition Bureau more teeth to go after anti-competitive behaviour, block mergers that reduce competition and have turned too many industries into oligopolies and break up companies that abuse their dominant market positions.

Maybe the AT merger would not happen then. Another monopoly. Foreign competition coming in means new airlines and new jobs. Sounds like something we could use right now. And there would probably be some sort of bailout. Don't expect any money from those taking advice from Greta. She might get upset again like her UN speech.

The only one who has mentioned Greta is you! Minus a few gate agents what jobs are you expecting to add? International business travel is the only thing worthwhile to other airlines to invest in. And with the way things are changing business travel will be way down for a long time. So who do you think will dump money into our parket?

From what I understand, AC is "forced" to run some unprofitable routes to connect rural parts of Canada. If o'toole gets his way those routes are probably gone.

[DanWEC]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

[altiplano]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

[gtappl]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

I'm amazed nobody seems to understand neither party cares about what's right or what's best. All that maters is WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY WANT! The airlines will never get a bailout since voters hate them. It doesn't matter that every country in the world did it if they're afraid it'll lose votes.

[altiplano]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

I'm amazed nobody seems to understand neither party cares about what's right or what's best. All that maters is WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY WANT! The airlines will never get a bailout since voters hate them. It doesn't matter that every country in the world did it if they're afraid it'll lose votes.

And that shows that they lack integrity.

You have to make the hard or unpopular choice sometimes for what's right.

['97 Tercel]

The only one who has mentioned Greta is you!

Greta.

[Cavalier44]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

I think this is a flawed argument.

The United States is the largest aviation market in the world. There is a huge amount of competition, both from American and international carriers. American consumers have a huge amount of choice when booking airfare and the prices reflect that, as airlines are forced to cut costs in order to offer competitive pricing.

Yet if you look at the United States as an example, their airline pilots are among the highest paid in the world. Why? The answer is that they have a history of strong labour unions which have been able to consistently protect and improve working conditions at their respective carriers.

Conversely, if you look at Canada, we have a horrible track record when it comes to collective bargaining. Our unions often exist just to rubber-stamp cost-cutting measures proposed by their respective companies - why do you think it is that when companies like Air Canada seek to reduce their costs, the cost of labour is often the first option they turn to? Because it works, virtually every time. The reality is that Air Canada sets the standard for the rest of the country to follow, and ACPA routinely acts as a vehicle to allow the company to implement WAWCON reductions which create fallout for the rest of the industry. In fact, in the last two decades, I'd be curious to see the number of times that ACPA has voted "no" on any TA that the company as proposed.

Increased competition is sorely needed in this country as virtually every industry is monopolized by two or three major players which results in a higher price for the end consumer - just look at our telecommunications industry. When Canadian companies are forced to compete internationally, they are often bloated and uncompetitive when compared to their competition because they're used to having a virtual government-sanctioned monopoly at home, just look at Bombardier for another example.

The reason that you're concerned that increased competition will result in cost-cutting in the labour force is that historically in this country, we've allowed it to happen for any number of reasons. If you want to protect your wages and working conditions, fix your unions, full stop. Competition and improvements to wages don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[Ruddervator]

Even if that means breaking up Air Canada into smaller pieces?

[DanWEC]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

I think this is a flawed argument.

The United States is the largest aviation market in the world. There is a huge amount of competition, both from American and international carriers. American consumers have a huge amount of choice when booking airfare and the prices reflect that, as airlines are forced to cut costs in order to offer competitive pricing.

Yet if you look at the United States as an example, their airline pilots are among the highest paid in the world. Why? The answer is that they have a history of strong labour unions which have been able to consistently protect and improve working conditions at their respective carriers.

Conversely, if you look at Canada, we have a horrible track record when it comes to collective bargaining. Our unions often exist just to rubber-stamp cost-cutting measures proposed by their respective companies - why do you think it is that when companies like Air Canada seek to reduce their costs, the cost of labour is often the first option they turn to? Because it works, virtually every time. The reality is that Air Canada sets the standard for the rest of the country to follow, and ACPA routinely acts as a vehicle to allow the company to implement WAWCON reductions which create fallout for the rest of the industry. In fact, in the last two decades, I'd be curious to see the number of times that ACPA has voted "no" on any TA that the company as proposed.

Increased competition is sorely needed in this country as virtually every industry is monopolized by two or three major players which results in a higher price for the end consumer - just look at our telecommunications industry. When Canadian companies are forced to compete internationally, they are often bloated and uncompetitive when compared to their competition because they're used to having a virtual government-sanctioned monopoly at home, just look at Bombardier for another example.

The reason that you're concerned that increased competition will result in cost-cutting in the labour force is that historically in this country, we've allowed it to happen for any number of reasons. If you want to protect your wages and working conditions, fix your unions, full stop. Competition and improvements to wages don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I agree in principle with what you're saying. However, in aviation, our operations are currently at a disadvantage to foreign operators because of our operating environment- economically and geographical. Low population, high taxes/fees/expenses, expensive operating envelope. Most large foreign airlines that would have the means to operate here either have much higher revenue stream from other routes that could subsidize operations here, or they're subsidized by their own government, so it's not a level playing field.

There would have to be tariffs, etc. But a more holistic approach would be, along the lines of what you're saying; fix our structure entirely. How about if the gov't would have to make it easier to operate our domestic airlines (Insert any other business here as well) here instead of making it more difficult for foreign ones?

And yes, fix the shill of a union that ACPA is!

[mbav8r]

"Open airlines up to more foreign competition."
Great, thats just what we need. More cost cutting, which will start with labour.
Honestly, Canadian governmental choices are the Sandlot.

I think this is a flawed argument.

The United States is the largest aviation market in the world. There is a huge amount of competition, both from American and international carriers. American consumers have a huge amount of choice when booking airfare and the prices reflect that, as airlines are forced to cut costs in order to offer competitive pricing.

Yet if you look at the United States as an example, their airline pilots are among the highest paid in the world. Why? The answer is that they have a history of strong labour unions which have been able to consistently protect and improve working conditions at their respective carriers.

Conversely, if you look at Canada, we have a horrible track record when it comes to collective bargaining. Our unions often exist just to rubber-stamp cost-cutting measures proposed by their respective companies - why do you think it is that when companies like Air Canada seek to reduce their costs, the cost of labour is often the first option they turn to? Because it works, virtually every time. The reality is that Air Canada sets the standard for the rest of the country to follow, and ACPA routinely acts as a vehicle to allow the company to implement WAWCON reductions which create fallout for the rest of the industry. In fact, in the last two decades, I'd be curious to see the number of times that ACPA has voted "no" on any TA that the company as proposed.

Increased competition is sorely needed in this country as virtually every industry is monopolized by two or three major players which results in a higher price for the end consumer - just look at our telecommunications industry. When Canadian companies are forced to compete internationally, they are often bloated and uncompetitive when compared to their competition because they're used to having a virtual government-sanctioned monopoly at home, just look at Bombardier for another example.

The reason that you're concerned that increased competition will result in cost-cutting in the labour force is that historically in this country, we've allowed it to happen for any number of reasons. If you want to protect your wages and working conditions, fix your unions, full stop. Competition and improvements to wages don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Your argument is also flawed, the competition in question has been subsidized by government bailouts or loans, 40 billion to US carriers alone with another 14 billion coming their way. One carrier has received 14 billion to bring back furloughed employees which it only needed 10% of that, the rest may be used to purchase and merge with another airline.
Fair competition is one thing, government subsidized competition is completely different!

[Cavalier44]

Your argument is also flawed, the competition in question has been subsidized by government bailouts or loans, 40 billion to US carriers alone with another 14 billion coming their way. One carrier has received 14 billion to bring back furloughed employees which it only needed 10% of that, the rest may be used to purchase and merge with another airline.
Fair competition is one thing, government subsidized competition is completely different!

I agree with you - however, the premise of my argument is based on pre-COVID conditions which obviously do not reflect our current reality. The question was whether or not increased competition is inherently bad for Canadian aviation workers, and whether it would lead to a decline in wages as a result of cost-cutting. All things being equal, my argument is that increased competition is not necessarily a bad thing for Canadian aviation workers as long as we make our collective bargaining units more effective and accountable.

Of course, in a post-COVID world, Canadian airlines are not playing on a level playing field when our competition is being subsidized and we're being left to fend for ourselves. If a new, Conservative government were to open up the aviation industry to increased foreign competition, there would certainly have to be a proportionate level of support in place for Canadian airlines to ensure they're being given a level playing field.

[gtappl]

That's like saying we should let China dump more cheap steel onto the Canadian market... that's more forklift and yard jobs isn't it? Someone will buy it?

Allowing subsidized foreign lift to be dumped on the Canadian market is not competition and is not good for Canada.

I'm amazed nobody seems to understand neither party cares about what's right or what's best. All that maters is WHAT PEOPLE SAY THEY WANT! The airlines will never get a bailout since voters hate them. It doesn't matter that every country in the world did it if they're afraid it'll lose votes.

And that shows that they lack integrity.

You have to make the hard or unpopular choice sometimes for what's right.

I don't think anyone here believes either side has a shred of integrity.

[mbav8r]

Your argument is also flawed, the competition in question has been subsidized by government bailouts or loans, 40 billion to US carriers alone with another 14 billion coming their way. One carrier has received 14 billion to bring back furloughed employees which it only needed 10% of that, the rest may be used to purchase and merge with another airline.
Fair competition is one thing, government subsidized competition is completely different!

I agree with you - however, the premise of my argument is based on pre-COVID conditions which obviously do not reflect our current reality. The question was whether or not increased competition is inherently bad for Canadian aviation workers, and whether it would lead to a decline in wages as a result of cost-cutting. All things being equal, my argument is that increased competition is not necessarily a bad thing for Canadian aviation workers as long as we make our collective bargaining units more effective and accountable.

Of course, in a post-COVID world, Canadian airlines are not playing on a level playing field when our competition is being subsidized and we're being left to fend for ourselves. If a new, Conservative government were to open up the aviation industry to increased foreign competition, there would certainly have to be a proportionate level of support in place for Canadian airlines to ensure they're being given a level playing field.

I’m confident enough to continue my support for PCs, I seriously doubt they would do this while airlines are struggling, these comments were made pre Covid crisis and don’t reflect today, correct me if I’m wrong about when the comments were made, I could alway vote, ur abstain.

[Ruddervator]

Your argument is also flawed, the competition in question has been subsidized by government bailouts or loans, 40 billion to US carriers alone with another 14 billion coming their way. One carrier has received 14 billion to bring back furloughed employees which it only needed 10% of that, the rest may be used to purchase and merge with another airline.
Fair competition is one thing, government subsidized competition is completely different!

I agree with you - however, the premise of my argument is based on pre-COVID conditions which obviously do not reflect our current reality. The question was whether or not increased competition is inherently bad for Canadian aviation workers, and whether it would lead to a decline in wages as a result of cost-cutting. All things being equal, my argument is that increased competition is not necessarily a bad thing for Canadian aviation workers as long as we make our collective bargaining units more effective and accountable.

Of course, in a post-COVID world, Canadian airlines are not playing on a level playing field when our competition is being subsidized and we're being left to fend for ourselves. If a new, Conservative government were to open up the aviation industry to increased foreign competition, there would certainly have to be a proportionate level of support in place for Canadian airlines to ensure they're being given a level playing field.

I’m confident enough to continue my support for PCs, I seriously doubt they would do this while airlines are struggling, these comments were made pre Covid crisis and don’t reflect today, correct me if I’m wrong about when the comments were made, I could alway vote, ur abstain.

O'Toole released his platform in June 2020. It also says he would break up companies that abuse their dominant positions. No airline is more dominant than Air Canada. How likely is it that he would divide Air Canada into separate companies?

[ayseven]

Given the strength of the Conservatives in Alberta, I would say "very". I would not trust those guys.

[bcflyer]

I’m genuinely curious how you think O’Toole could break up a privately owned company?

[McKinley]

Given the strength of the Conservatives in Alberta, I would say "very". I would not trust those guys.

The Conservatives have met with Jazz, AC, WJ.. they’ve been pretty vocal on the lack of support for Canadian airlines.

Jason Kenny has been supportive of WJ ( I know he’s provincial and not federal)

Can you provide proof? I’ll happily become enlightened.

I can’t fathom a situation worse than the one we have at present for Canadian Aviation.

[ayseven]

That is just it: the Conservatives will support WJ (an Alberta company) by breaking up AC if they could. No, things are not good. It is a worldwide problem. Guys in Europe are training to become train drivers, and might never fly again. Personally, I don't blame anybody. It doesn't matter how we got here; we are all in the same boat. We just need to hang on.

[TheStig]

Given the strength of the Conservatives in Alberta, I would say "very". I would not trust those guys.

The Conservatives have met with Jazz, AC, WJ.. they’ve been pretty vocal on the lack of support for Canadian airlines.

Jason Kenny has been supportive of WJ ( I know he’s provincial and not federal)

Can you provide proof? I’ll happily become enlightened.

I can’t fathom a situation worse than the one we have at present for Canadian Aviation.

Most pilots tend to be conservatives, but it's easy to point towards failings of all the parties because they all exist in the same ho-hum Canadian political ecosphere. Political leanings aside the biggest issue that the pandemic has laid bare is that Canadians seem unwilling to punish ineffective leadership at the poles and hold our elected officials to account for their timid inaction. Political cycles that take 2-4 years I most countries last 10 years here. Justin Trudeau was elected because Canadians could see that the Harper Government was out of ideas, and the same could be said for the end of the Chretien/Martin era.

The formula is simple; don't attempt to fix military procurement, provincial transfers, health care, or anything big. Buy votes in election years with debt, and ensure outspoken MP's are placed firmly on the backbench or booted altogether, all policy is to be determined by the PMO's office, and the voters will keep you in power for a decade.

Stephen Harper was as exciting as dry toast, but the country did a good job of navigating the country through the 2008 recession, you'd have a hard time arguing that we've done an equally good job with the pandemic. The Federal Cabinet is weak and filled with inexperienced MP's holding vital roles due to the parties insistence on towing the party line. They've lost capable people such as Bill Morneau and Dr. Jane Philpott who could have made important differences over the reporter/blogger and graphic designer that currently fill the rolls of Minister of Finance and Health.

[Ruddervator]

I’m genuinely curious how you think O’Toole could break up a privately owned company?

By strengthening the competition bureau. He says it right in his leadership platform. He plans to do the same with the telecom industry.

[McKinley]

Given the strength of the Conservatives in Alberta, I would say "very". I would not trust those guys.

The Conservatives have met with Jazz, AC, WJ.. they’ve been pretty vocal on the lack of support for Canadian airlines.

Jason Kenny has been supportive of WJ ( I know he’s provincial and not federal)

Can you provide proof? I’ll happily become enlightened.

I can’t fathom a situation worse than the one we have at present for Canadian Aviation.

Most pilots tend to be conservatives, but it's easy to point towards failings of all the parties because they all exist in the same ho-hum Canadian political ecosphere. Political leanings aside the biggest issue that the pandemic has laid bare is that Canadians seem unwilling to punish ineffective leadership at the poles and hold our elected officials to account for their timid inaction. Political cycles that take 2-4 years I most countries last 10 years here. Justin Trudeau was elected because Canadians could see that the Harper Government was out of ideas, and the same could be said for the end of the Chretien/Martin era.

The formula is simple; don't attempt to fix military procurement, provincial transfers, health care, or anything big. Buy votes in election years with debt, and ensure outspoken MP's are placed firmly on the backbench or booted altogether, all policy is to be determined by the PMO's office, and the voters will keep you in power for a decade.

Stephen Harper was as exciting as dry toast, but the country did a good job of navigating the country through the 2008 recession, you'd have a hard time arguing that we've done an equally good job with the pandemic. The Federal Cabinet is weak and filled with inexperienced MP's holding vital roles due to the parties insistence on towing the party line. They've lost capable people such as Bill Morneau and Dr. Jane Philpott who could have made important differences over the reporter/blogger and graphic designer that currently fill the rolls of Minister of Finance and Health.

I wish there was a party that was more moderate ... / between the conservatives /Liberals.

Financially, I’ve become more conservative for sure as this pandemic has dragged on. Jobs are needed. Period.

I do think Jason Kenny ( despite his obvious faults) has done an ok job trying to balance the economy/ lives. I’d hate to be at the helm in this middle of this mess.

Lockdown, lockdown, lockdown seems far too simple.

[altiplano]

They should just keep booting the social conservative religious types from the Conservatives.

I have no problem if you have a faith and live by it, but keep your tell-me-how-to-live ideals to yourself.

Abortion, gay marriage, conversion therapy... let people live their own lives and make their own choices

Same goes on the other side, political correctness, social justice, far left moral imposition, taking legally purchased guns from regular people and more criminals... fock off.

There is no place for that in government.

What they really need to be doing is going to bat for the economy and Canadian jobs, going to bat against crime, improving our military procurement, developing effective foreign policy, producing a robust healthcare system.

As I write that, I see that what they should be doing is exactly the things that this government has NOT done.

Conservatives need to kick the quacks or reign them under control in so far that it's clear to everyone that that social conservatism is for your home, your church, your personal belief, but not government. We are a free country and people need to make their own choices and have their own consequences.

Do that and they will need a bigger tent. Red Tories from the centre will move in en mass.