MP3 Players in the Flightdeck

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:02 pm

.., this is what i have been looking for. Do you have any links or ideas on where i could find info on these incidents?

pushyboss:

Actually i don't care what the heart surgeon listens to (short of christian radio) as long as he does his job.

If you can't maintain situational awareness because of a little brahms going on in the background, how the heck are you going to fly the plane while atc talks to you?

If you can walk and chew gum at the same time you can fly a plane, but if you can't, then you can't. Maybe you should look into accounting or quality control.

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:50 pm

So what is productive here? You don't need a rule to enable you to do anything.

OK. You win Ahramin. The word "enable" may be misleading in this discussion. But it is a term used by the regulators. The aeronautics act "enables" the various regulations. Either way it makes little difference to the discussion so let's put that to bed.

Anyway....

Ok, so you are not saying that distractions are "interference with aircraft systems or equipment". With your track record for misinterpreting rules to support your opinions i had to be sure.

No. The question as I understand it concerns the use of an MP3 player in the cockpit.

How does T/C & CARS stand on the use of music and other forms of entertianment (i.e. Game Boy) on the flight deck?

This raises two issues with respect to whether it is appropriate or prohibited. The first issue is distraction and the second is the use of portable electronic devices.

As I've stated, as long as some reasonable common sense is used, I don't see how listening to music would conflict with any regulations. The same goes for fillng in the crossword puzzle. However, it isn't as clear when you consider portable electronic devices.

Cell phones are clearly not a good idea. First of all, the relevant policy frowns upon it, and there is a great deal of information out there that supports the policy. I have personally witnessed cell phone interference with aircraft navigation and communications systems.

Many studies have been done by the FAA, Transport Canada, EASA, Boeing and the RTCA. Much of the material isn't readily available on the internet, but some is:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeroma ... rfere.html
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/50/Gsm_intf.pdf
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... C0106r.htm
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_an ... %20devices

And here is an excerpt from the AIP:

The most real threat appears to be (from what i can find) false warning indications triggered by rfi.

No. In my opinion the real threat is from pilots who think they know better than everyone else.

The airworthiness regulations are there to ensure standards are developed that provide an acceptable level of safety. In the case of hazardous interference the current standards developed by TC/FAA/EASA for aircraft (roughly speaking) place the acceptable rate of occurrence of hazardous failures at about once per million flight hours. The rate for catastrophic failures is once per billion flight hours.

So arguably, the chances of the operation of your cell phone causing hazardously misleading navigation information to be presented to a flight control system of large transport jet as it flares during an attempted autoland in crappy weather is pretty remote, but the powers that be have determined through a great deal of study that the probability exceeds the established airworthiness standards.

So yes, you may be lowering your chance of an accident from one in a million to one in 100,000. If everyone did it, that means 10 more accidents per millions flight hours. That may be OK for the airworthiness authorities in third world countries, but our safety record speaks volumes.

So Ahramin, please, let me know if you fly commercially, and what airline I need to avoid. It’s quite irresponsible of you to allow passengers to use cell phones in your airplane while it’s flying.

scaredpax · Post by **scaredpax** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:53 pm

snowbear wrote:Will any guys that want to wear music players or play game boys etc. please add your name and company name to your postings. That way I will know what companies not to let my loved ones fly on. Also, if your resume crosses my desk I will not have to waste your time by asking silly "what is a professional pilot" type questions. In fact we should be able to save you gas money as driving to the interview will not be nessesary.

This self inflicted type of cockpit distraction is childish, amature and dangerous. Let's be professionals. The life you save may be your own.

I agree! How can one have the situational awareness to instantly react to a problem when their nose is buried in a paper? Time lag.

Somewhat related link and how long does it take to get back into the so called Control Loop if problem arises if you are doing unrelated things? Any comments?

http://flightdeckautomation.com/issueevid.aspx?ID=114

Hornblower · Post by **Hornblower** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:18 pm

Wow, it scares me to think this CID guy has read so many rules and understands not a single one. Does anyone know if he is actually employed in the aviation industry?

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:02 pm

Wow, it scares me to think this CID guy has read so many rules and understands not a single one.

Hornblower,

How do you figure?

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:16 pm

I find that when I do work on puzzles and crosswords, I keep myself more alert and can more quickly react to an adverse situation. Beats staring out the window until my eyes roll into the back of my head. Just try to sit there doing nothing on a 3 hour(or longer) flight.

The Mole · Post by **The Mole** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:54 pm

All our company a/c have an input jack for audio, all 40. Its built right into the comm box. The avionics guys just have to wire it in. Works great. Cuts out at all the right time's.

The last company i worked for, had an Alping tape deck right in the dash.

Nothing like doing a low pass over the reserve with Flight of Valcries (scares the hell out of natives) playing...

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:54 pm

Thanks for the links CID. The Boeing one i had not found and is the most honest and informative imo.

CID wrote: I have personally witnessed cell phone interference with aircraft navigation and communications systems.

Are you able to relate what happened? Did you file reports? If so are they available online?

And as for flying commercially, yes i do this for a living but not to worry, the chances of you rating a ride on my aircraft are only slightly better than the chances of a cell phone causing me a problem on it

I notice that GPSs are not subject to rmi from cell phones eh CID

. But the other day i heard a controller telling an aircraft he was four miles off the airway. Followed by speculation from same controller that there was a scallop in the airway. Not sure if it was VHF or LF/MF but no one seemed too concerned about it.

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:02 pm

The cell phone thing started from thje cell companies ticked that the signal was going to 5 different cell towers and screwing up the network, and preventing the companies from charging Long distance.

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:10 pm

Yeah. The Mike phones have capped the towers so that your phone will not work above a few hundred feet agl.

I usually recommend to my passengers that they turn their cells phones off to stop them from going into analog mode looking for a signal and killing the battery, but the blackberries still transmit e-mails and such quite well and do not have an analog mode so no battery issues.

Anti-Ice · Post by **Anti-Ice** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:43 pm

Yawn....stretch........aaaahhhhhhhhhh.........
How many times have I read this debate on this website. CD players, reading, yada yada yada.

To those opposed, I doubt you've ever flown a 4+ hour leg at 5am after flying all night in shit weather. Keeps you awake better then coffee damnit.

To those for...rock on brothers and sisters. My airplane has a panel mount cd player, with bose intercom.

back to bed for me.

Jimmy Hoffa · Post by **Jimmy Hoffa** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:47 pm

HA HA HA HA HA ... if all it takes is a little music to distract a pilot something tells me they have bigger problems and most likely shouldn't be in a plane at all. and i love how some people automatically associate mp3 players with game boys and x-box's, oh ya .. they're really close ...

Snowbear:

"Will any guys that want to wear music players or play game boys etc. please add your name and company name to your postings. That way I will know what companies not to let my loved ones fly on. Also, if your resume crosses my desk I will not have to waste your time by asking silly "what is a professional pilot" type questions. In fact we should be able to save you gas money as driving to the interview will not be nessesary.

This self inflicted type of cockpit distraction is childish, amature and dangerous. Let's be professionals. The life you save may be your own."

That has to be the most childish statement ever. Might as well go on a rant about your cabbie listening to music while he's driving. God forbid he be listening to some Peter Frampton and blow through a red light, or be listening to the news and t-bone a school bus.

As for the rest of the opposition, its called discression. you don't have it "distracting" you when you're in critical phases of flight, if you can't figure that much out on your own god help us and as snowbear seems to think .... please add your name and company name to your postings. That way I will know what companies not to let my loved ones fly on. Also, if your resume crosses my desk I will not have to waste your time by asking silly "what is a professional pilot" type questions. In fact we should be able to save you gas money as driving to the interview will not be nessesary.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:56 pm

I listen to music while I drive my car...keeps me awake.
I listen to my MP3 while I'm on my road bike.
I listen to tunes while I ski.
I listen to music while I sctatch my nuts....how long are we going to go back and forth on this subject? You want to listen to music in cruise? So, listen to music already! If I'm not likely to send my bike/car/skis off the side of a cliff because I I hear music.....then what are the chances I'll fly my bloody airplane into the ground BECAUSE I'm listening to music???
To the *&^% who wouldn't let his family fly with a company who's pilots listen to music while flying....DO YOU HAVE A RADIO IN YOUR CAR????
This is total CRAP!!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:57 pm

Hi Jimmy,

That is what I call a great first post.

Cat

SuperDave · Post by **SuperDave** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:58 pm

I guess the argument of whether or not listening to music is distracting could go for an eternity, it all depends on the individual I think. Some people can handle it, some may find it distracting. Personally, it's kind fun listening to "Run through the jungle" while following a twisting river, or tree-toppin' it home on the empty leg.
Obviously everything is to be had in moderation, and common sense should prevail. But on those long, lonely trips out into the Barrens, it's kinda nice to have a few tunes kickin'. More fun than carrying on a three-person conversation with me, myself, and I.
All things are relative. If you're going Vancouver-Victoria all day in a Dash-8, I'm really not too sure how much time there would be to listen to music. On the other hand, once up and going in a floatplane with a canoe tied on, into a head-wind, there's usually quite a bit time before anything real exiting goes down. As far as the 'distracting' factor goess, I think listening to 126.70 is more tiring than a few harmless tunes. And on the long legs, if a person needs 100% of his/her attention to monitor the gauges and squirms in the their seat when some one chats on the radio, (which in my opinion is no worse then an MP3) then some real soul-searching may be a good idea. I'm not saying we should slack off, and picture the cartoon donkey swattin' flies with his tail all day, but a bit of music aint that bad if the circumstances are right.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:02 pm

" I listen to music I sctatch my nuts.... "

Hey Doc, am I to understand listening to music brings on an uncontrollable urge to scratch your nuts?

Or did you mean to say "while" you scratch your nuts?

Cat

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:05 pm

Ya.....caught me! I went back and fixed that. I'm just shaking my head over this one. I guess I might miss something really important on 122.8 while I cruise along at 15000 feet...got to know where EVERY Otter/Beaver/185/Be18 is in the whole north!

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:16 pm

And as for flying commercially, yes i do this for a living but not to worry, the chances of you rating a ride on my aircraft are only slightly better than the chances of a cell phone causing me a problem on it

Corporate or government?

Ahramin,

I wish a few other documents I've read were available on the internet. If you liked the Boeing link, you'd love the RTCA studies.

I can't get you much in the way of reports, but I can tell you that the incidents are usually a result of multiple factors including poor maintenance or a system fault.

The other factor is aircraft age. Older aircraft aren't "HIRF" hardened so they are more susceptible to interference from TPEDs.

I notice that GPSs are not subject to rmi from cell phones eh CID

Actually, the terms are “EMC” or “EMI” and “RFI”. They stand for Electromagnetic Compatibility, Electromagnetic Interference and Radio Frequency Interference.

Here's a cool link to some relevant FAA course handouts that is interesting reading on the subject:

EMC

Perhaps GPSs aren’t discussed by the references I provided you but they most certainly are susceptible. Even worse than cell phones are satcoms. Iridium included. When you install satcoms on GPS equipped aircraft, you have to make sure the GPS antenna is compatible. Some aren’t. Here is a link to product information for a GPS antenna that is satcom compatible:

http://www.comant.com/pdfs/[ci%20401-220]5-05.pdf

Other sources of interference for GPS is VHF communications equipment.

About 25% (my own personal estimate based on experience) of the GPS systems out there will show you a reduction in SNR (signal to noise ratio) if you monitor while transmitting on 121.X and 131.X frequencies and around there.

And then there are still other strange sources of GPS interference:

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/notes_and_in ... fccREV.htm

Either way, interference won’t typically cause GPS errors. It more likely causes an outage. GPS signals contain very specialized coded telemetry information that is very difficult to corrupt because of the coding/decoding format. Not impossible but improbable. GPS Position errors are more commonly caused by timing errors, satellite faults, atmospheric issues and calculation (positioning) errors. In the “biz” they call them “noise, bias, and blunders.”

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:42 pm

Doc, your mentioning scratching your nuts got me to thinking that if there is such a thing as reincarnation I want to come back as a dog.

And I really think that us drifting off onto this topic makes as much sense as the juvenile arguing about listening to music and using cell phones while flying that is going on here.

Cat

cinical · Post by **cinical** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:50 pm

Jimmy Hoffa good post.

Dust Devil · Post by **Dust Devil** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:18 pm

. wrote:
And off the top of my head i recall another accident in Switzerland where a cell interfeared with the approach in IMC, the Aircraft crashed and the cellphone was a factor.

How could they possibly know the cell was a factor?

CID · Post by **CID** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:42 pm

How could they possibly know the cell was a factor?

I wondered the same thing so I did some looking.

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=1905442005

polkaroo · Post by **polkaroo** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:51 pm

Nothing beats listening to GNR "Welcome to the Jungle" enroute to Kashechewan! Hell, I even have to take my MP3 player out of the plane for the trot to "lavatory". What do you think some other great tunes would be enroute to such a paradise?

Jercules · Post by **Jercules** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:16 am

Personally, I'm anxiously awaiting the arrival of internet access in the cockpit so I can read these retarded (albeit entertaining) arguments enroute.

jay-f · Post by **jay-f** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:19 am

polkaroo wrote:Nothing beats listening to GNR "Welcome to the Jungle" enroute to Kashechewan!

I personnally like Highway to hell by ac/dc when im flying into kash..

MP3 Players in the Flightdeck

OMG