"Three possible Transat suitors say they are not interested in acquiring struggling airline"

[TeePeeCreeper]

At this point nearly every carrier in Canada has begun to weigh the pros and cons of CCAA/

It is time to go to the major airports, occupy and disrupt the few departing or arriving flights...

It is time that ALL Canadian pilots set the parking brake to ON for as long as it will take to get the respect we deserve as professionals.

If we can't fight for this, we are just deserving the treatment inflicted to us for the last year...

You do realize that “sticking it” re: “setting the parking brake” or “disrupting flights” for the passengers is NOT a productive manner to go about enacting meaningful change? Right?!?

“Deserving of the treatment inflicted to us”

Are you saying that the little traction that Canadians whom are flying on the airlines should have to “suffer” akin to what you and many others have had to?

My heart goes out to you but I’d like to believe that most keep those kinds of sentiments to themselves as its misdirected anger and frustration.

Take the high road,

TPC

[termerair]

You do realize that “sticking it” re: “setting the parking brake” or “disrupting flights” for the passengers is NOT a productive manner to go about enacting meaningful change? Right?!?

And what has been productive so far...?

The many articles in the newspaper, the interviews on tv (that i have both participated to) have done nothing.

The protest in Ottawa in October where only 400 ppl showed up (when thousands of pilots, FA's and mechanics were out of work) has done nothing... Same for the protest in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver...

The agreement between the fed and the companies to not fly to the southern destinations this winter has done nothing...

How much more insults and trashing do we need to start fighting for our jobs...? It must be nice and easy to be collecting a nice paycheck when your position hasn't been affected too much... But do we collectively realize what is happening to our industry...? ALL of us at EVERY airline will be paying the price (more or less depending who you are working for...) of the current inaction of the clowns at the helm of our country.

If you are not ready to defend the jobs of others, do it for yourself, your future conditions/positions/advancement depend on it...

And above all, this is just a matter of self esteem and respect... Personally I don't accept to be ignored and treated like shit when i have done nothing wrong in my life/career/job.

[330heavy]

There are a lot of frustrations in our industry. However, one can not take work action as it's illegal. Secondly, while a great idea floated here before of stopping flights in/out of YOW by airline execs, they, like pilots won't stick together. Someone will restart, or start flights to capture some temporary market. As TPC stated, take the high road and vote the current government clowns out. Keep bombarding MPs with letters. More, bigger protests?

I love reading all AC employees comment on the future of Transat. I didn’t know you were part of the board of directors... do you feel better now that you wrote that Transat might be going CCAA ? Wake me up in a couple of weeks/months and let’s see how many of you were totally off track !

What the ‘AC employees’ have apparently that you don’t have is perspective. They have worked for a company with an upside down balance sheet. And they have experienced the bliss of CCAA.

I would pay attention to what is being said. You too may become a CCAA insider.

Many of us at TS have been through bankruptcies and permanent lay offs at previous jobs. As you know, the thought of it isn't pleasant.

[rudder]

Many of us at TS have been through bankruptcies and permanent lay offs at previous jobs. As you know, the thought of it isn't pleasant.

An insolvency leading to liquidation is straightforward. And extreme.

An insolvency leading to restructuring is much more complex, but means there will be a future for the employees.

I hope that TRZ can avoid both. But saving the business and saving the shareholders are two completely different exercises. I hope that the eventual outcome saves the business.

[330heavy]

Yes, you are correct rudder! And thanks for your hope. It is a hope for every carrier in Canada right now for sure.

[Zaibatsu]

You do realize that “sticking it” re: “setting the parking brake” or “disrupting flights” for the passengers is NOT a productive manner to go about enacting meaningful change? Right?!?

And what has been productive so far...?

The many articles in the newspaper, the interviews on tv (that i have both participated to) have done nothing.

The protest in Ottawa in October where only 400 ppl showed up (when thousands of pilots, FA's and mechanics were out of work) has done nothing... Same for the protest in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver...

The agreement between the fed and the companies to not fly to the southern destinations this winter has done nothing...

How much more insults and trashing do we need to start fighting for our jobs...? It must be nice and easy to be collecting a nice paycheck when your position hasn't been affected too much... But do we collectively realize what is happening to our industry...? ALL of us at EVERY airline will be paying the price (more or less depending who you are working for...) of the current inaction of the clowns at the helm of our country.

If you are not ready to defend the jobs of others, do it for yourself, your future conditions/positions/advancement depend on it...

And above all, this is just a matter of self esteem and respect... Personally I don't accept to be ignored and treated like shit when i have done nothing wrong in my life/career/job.

Lex Talonis is immature and won’t garner the support of the people who have not only been defrauded by the airlines, but many of whom have lost their livelihoods as well.

I’ll let you in on a little secret that really shouldn’t be a secret. Those big salaries that exist at the top of the airline world. They don’t exist because you are worth it. They don’t exist because you have some sort of special skill set.

They only exist because of events like this that happen every ten years or so. Events that clean house and make lots of pilots find new careers leaving those who manage to stay because of seniority or timing or luck or sheer tenacity among very few compatriots. And when the airlines negotiate contracts they know that very few will ever collect, but they have relatively cheap and disposable labour at the bottom who are only there because of the carrot that will remain elusive for most people.

[JoeyBarton]

Not sure where you are going with this but it doesn't clean house at air canada and nobody ever leaves air canada and the 4000 on the list currently are or will be making those salaries. Same for the big 3 in the States.
What it does show is how our system is broken whereby some excellent pilots due to bad luck, or timing make the choice of going to weaker airline B or C instead of A in the first place. Even after 20 years at B or C, when it goes bust, said pilot can only go to airline A for 55k being a relief pilot with no reward or proper compensation for the experience he or she brings up. That is messed up.
So essentially, and more than in any other industry, you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55. That is what is messed up. And if it wasn't a land of seniority everywhere but a bit more a land of competency, well then any list integration, CCAA or bankruptcy wouldn't entail so much drama and doom and gloom type of hysteria...That's where our problem is, our own system.

[haironfire]

you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55.

Such a very true statement. And more importantly, why did I not do this? Sadly, I thought I was at the time. WRONG! Once again.

[Cavalier44]

you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55.

Such a very true statement. And more importantly, why did I not do this? Sadly, I thought I was at the time. WRONG! Once again.

That's aviation though - it's an unpredictable industry. Every move that you make is a gamble, and some end up luckier than others, but in the end, no move that you make is 100% guaranteed to be safe. There are 600 Air Canada pilots who believed they were making the "right choice" going to mainline, arguably the safest move to make in the Canadian aviation industry, and who are now unfortunately furloughed. These types of major events, i.e. market crashes, global pandemics, terrorist attacks, etc., are out of our control, so I try not to spend too much time worrying about it. If you have experience - the hours, the type ratings, the PIC time - other opportunities will always present themselves in time. The key is sticking it out until that time comes.

[haironfire]

Agreed. I have told others when flying together you try and make the best choices with the circumstances and facts provided at the time. Then, when sitting in the rocking chair, looking at pictures of airplanes, only then can you say what worked and what didn't throughout your career.

Better days ahead I hope, real soon.

[simply_no_one]

They only exist because of events like this that happen every ten years or so. Events that clean house and make lots of pilots find new careers leaving those who manage to stay because of seniority or timing or luck or sheer tenacity among very few compatriots. And when the airlines negotiate contracts they know that very few will ever collect, but they have relatively cheap and disposable labour at the bottom who are only there because of the carrot that will remain elusive for most people.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Do you even work for an airline?

[simply_no_one]

Not sure where you are going with this but it doesn't clean house at air canada and nobody ever leaves air canada and the 4000 on the list currently are or will be making those salaries. Same for the big 3 in the States.
What it does show is how our system is broken whereby some excellent pilots due to bad luck, or timing make the choice of going to weaker airline B or C instead of A in the first place. Even after 20 years at B or C, when it goes bust, said pilot can only go to airline A for 55k being a relief pilot with no reward or proper compensation for the experience he or she brings up. That is messed up.
So essentially, and more than in any other industry, you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55. That is what is messed up. And if it wasn't a land of seniority everywhere but a bit more a land of competency, well then any list integration, CCAA or bankruptcy wouldn't entail so much drama and doom and gloom type of hysteria...That's where our problem is, our own system.

EXACTLY

I'm all for remaining with a seniority system when it comes to bidding/vacation etc. But for experience, if you have 20 years flying for Emirates and come to AC should you be at year one pay? No, you should be top scale... IMO.

[simply_no_one]

you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55.

Such a very true statement. And more importantly, why did I not do this? Sadly, I thought I was at the time. WRONG! Once again.

There are 600 Air Canada pilots who believed they were making the "right choice" going to mainline, arguably the safest move to make in the Canadian aviation industry, and who are now unfortunately furloughed.

I'd still rather be furloughed from AC, than have a number at WJ, AT, SW etc. It still is the one "fairly certain" choice you can make in Canada.

[rigpiggy]

Not sure where you are going with this but it doesn't clean house at air canada and nobody ever leaves air canada and the 4000 on the list currently are or will be making those salaries. Same for the big 3 in the States.
What it does show is how our system is broken whereby some excellent pilots due to bad luck, or timing make the choice of going to weaker airline B or C instead of A in the first place. Even after 20 years at B or C, when it goes bust, said pilot can only go to airline A for 55k being a relief pilot with no reward or proper compensation for the experience he or she brings up. That is messed up.
So essentially, and more than in any other industry, you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55. That is what is messed up. And if it wasn't a land of seniority everywhere but a bit more a land of competency, well then any list integration, CCAA or bankruptcy wouldn't entail so much drama and doom and gloom type of hysteria...That's where our problem is, our own system.

EXACTLY

I'm all for remaining with a seniority system when it comes to bidding/vacation etc. But for experience, if you have 20 years flying for Emirates and come to AC should you be at year one pay? No, you should be top scale... IMO.

Sorry, time served and good behaviour, or raise the wages of the bottom. to quote almost every union "we don't negotiate for people who aren't here yet

[simply_no_one]

Not sure where you are going with this but it doesn't clean house at air canada and nobody ever leaves air canada and the 4000 on the list currently are or will be making those salaries. Same for the big 3 in the States.
What it does show is how our system is broken whereby some excellent pilots due to bad luck, or timing make the choice of going to weaker airline B or C instead of A in the first place. Even after 20 years at B or C, when it goes bust, said pilot can only go to airline A for 55k being a relief pilot with no reward or proper compensation for the experience he or she brings up. That is messed up.
So essentially, and more than in any other industry, you better make the right choice at age 30-35 with 3-5000h to be sure to be still around with the wage you deserve at age 55. That is what is messed up. And if it wasn't a land of seniority everywhere but a bit more a land of competency, well then any list integration, CCAA or bankruptcy wouldn't entail so much drama and doom and gloom type of hysteria...That's where our problem is, our own system.

EXACTLY

I'm all for remaining with a seniority system when it comes to bidding/vacation etc. But for experience, if you have 20 years flying for Emirates and come to AC should you be at year one pay? No, you should be top scale... IMO.

Sorry, time served and good behaviour, or raise the wages of the bottom. to quote almost every union "we don't negotiate for people who aren't here yet

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

[RRJetPilot]

Cant compare the US. They are a proper country unlike this banana republic.

[alkaseltzer]

EXACTLY

I'm all for remaining with a seniority system when it comes to bidding/vacation etc. But for experience, if you have 20 years flying for Emirates and come to AC should you be at year one pay? No, you should be top scale... IMO.

Sorry, time served and good behaviour, or raise the wages of the bottom. to quote almost every union "we don't negotiate for people who aren't here yet

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

Are you promoting an idea whereby Trudeau makes a national seniority list and a national payscale? For pilots and FAs, and for equipment?

Again, socializing the national pilot body? Do I hear you, Houston?

We just lost the moon...err, narrowbody captain for 20yrs.

[simply_no_one]

Sorry, time served and good behaviour, or raise the wages of the bottom. to quote almost every union "we don't negotiate for people who aren't here yet

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

Are you promoting an idea whereby Trudeau makes a national seniority list and a national payscale? For pilots and FAs, and for equipment?

Again, socializing the national pilot body? Do I hear you, Houston?

We just lost the moon...err, narrowbody captain for 20yrs.

No. I'm promoting the idea where companies put value on experience. Nothing to do with national anything.

[TFTMB heavy]

I completely disagree. You think when doctors move hospitals they go back to new doctor pay? Even teachers have experience accounted for when moving to a new school.

And for the record they are already crediting experience in the USA at many regional airlines. Its just not at mainlines yet, but it will eventually mark my words.

Are you promoting an idea whereby Trudeau makes a national seniority list and a national payscale? For pilots and FAs, and for equipment?

Again, socializing the national pilot body? Do I hear you, Houston?

We just lost the moon...err, narrowbody captain for 20yrs.

No. I'm promoting the idea where companies put value on experience. Nothing to do with national anything.

The problem here is not the companies, it's the pilots. We are unionized and do not have a college or a professional association. We do not control our licensing either. The first thing you hear from pilots at a company when they hear there might be a merger is BOTL. Why would that company pay an experienced pilot more than another year 1 pilot? We are our own worst enemies.

[RippleRock]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

[Sharklasers]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

People want their cake and to eat yours too.
They the want the fast upgrades and/or big money and/or big equipment and growth that comes with overseas or start ups or leisure but they also want the security of a legacy carrier if things go sideways for them. Discounting immediately that if established companies were presented with the option of hiring a year 1 pilot for $60000 or an experienced also year one pilot for $300000 it’s obvious which they would choose. In the Leisure pilots perfect world AC would become their retirement job after spending 20 years enjoying the pluses that come with working leisure, then they would slide over once they can hold that 330k a year job with a good schedule. This would have a tremendous negative impact for the pilots who have been at that carrier for years.

Life is about risk, we as professionals need to weight the pros and cons of working for any operator and be prepared for the consequences of our decisions. Without government intervention soon there will be many pilots in Canada and Quebec who will soon have an opportunity to decide again whether they wish to chase money/metal of an LLC/Leisure/foreign or attempt for the security of a flag.

[TFTMB heavy]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

Life doesn’t always work out that way.

[TFTMB heavy]

Funny how this topic pops up every few years. It always goes away again.

The structure that supports the current model is worldwide. If you negate "contract check pilots or LS fillers" and mergers, everyone goes BOTL when new to a carrier. It isn't going away. You could make the claim, "it's not right", but what in this world is?

Get a job with a healthy carrier, and climb the ladder like everyone else.

People want their cake and to eat yours too.
They the want the fast upgrades and/or big money and/or big equipment and growth that comes with overseas or start ups or leisure but they also want the security of a legacy carrier if things go sideways for them. Discounting immediately that if established companies were presented with the option of hiring a year 1 pilot for $60000 or an experienced also year one pilot for $300000 it’s obvious which they would choose. In the Leisure pilots perfect world AC would become their retirement job after spending 20 years enjoying the pluses that come with working leisure, then they would slide over once they can hold that 330k a year job with a good schedule. This would have a tremendous negative impact for the pilots who have been at that carrier for years.

Life is about risk, we as professionals need to weight the pros and cons of working for any operator and be prepared for the consequences of our decisions. Without government intervention soon there will be many pilots in Canada and Quebec who will soon have an opportunity to decide again whether they wish to chase money/metal of an LLC/Leisure/foreign or attempt for the security of a flag.

Never heard anyone at Transat say that. Everyone was happy to retire there.

[altiplano]

I always hear things like doctors don't start at the bottom when they go to a new hospital... except often, yeah, they do.

My friend is a radiologist, he went to a new rad group at a new hospital. He's experienced, coming from a major cancer centre but wanted to work with this different group for the larger variety of work and 2 of his friends from med school are in the group. Not only did he have to buy in and start out taking lower pay on his work than the other rads in his group with the same experience, he has to kick up part of his take to the other "senior" guys as long as he's junior. When another new guy comes in he'll have to do the same no matter where his background is.

He joined BOTL.

How about engineers? New firm and you want in?
You buy in, partners take a cut.
Architects? Lawyers? same same.
The other lawyers are like fock you pay me.

We're a little different, but not too far off. At least we don't have to buy in... yet...

[goldeneagle]

How about engineers? New firm and you want in?
You buy in, partners take a cut.

Really ?

In my earlier years as an engineer, never was I asked to 'buy in' for a position. I brought a combination of expertise and experience specialized to a field, the conversation was more like 'what kind of numbers will be required to get you to accept an offer ?'

I started my own company more than 20 years ago, and in that length of time, have never asked anybody to 'buy in' to a position.

Me thinks you are confusing a partnership situation with an employee situation. They are absolutely not the same. When buying in that way, you are buying a seat at the big boys table, and with it comes direct say on company operations. That's a far cry from the 'hired help' role of an airline pilot.