Summit Air position

[mmm..bacon]

Any more details, Ms. Semenko? What's in it for our young aviator? Any time line for movement into the right seat (ya, I get that it's Covid, and all..) Or is it just uproot, move, bust ass for an indeterminate period, and pray that Summit's decent enough that you'll promote from within, and not hire from without for nebulous 'operational reasons' (you can save a few $$ by poaching a pilot with a ppc from another company..)

[Arnie Pye]

I'd suggest losing the attitude of entitlement. Summit has a long history of living up to their word. They WILL upgrade from the ramp before hiring off the street.
Right now, 15,000 hour Captains have no idea when they'll go back to work. What makes your timeline so special? Don't like Summit's answer, don't apply. They are some of the best people in this industry. Their flying is some of the most interesting you'll ever do.

You will uproot, you will work hard and you will be rewarded. Or you could stay in your basement and be mad at Ms. Semenko. Up to you.

[‘Bob’]

No risk, no reward.

Truthfully, there are people who have seats and unions and contracts who aren’t flying right now.

If you are risk averse, aviation is not for you.

[mmm..bacon]

Summit has a long history of living up to their word.

That's the point - there's no mention of that...just a 'move to Yellowknife' invitation. And, going back years, this industry is (in)famous for taking advantage of its young with "move to the middle of nowhere, work the ramp, and we'll put you right seat (eventually)" invitations.

You will uproot, you will work hard and you will be rewarded. Or you could stay in your basement and be mad at Ms. Semenko. Up to you.

No thanks - already did that sh!t 20+ years ago. Doesn't stop me from poking at the Semenkos of this world, in the hopes of making things a little better for the industry going forward.

[scdriver]

I'd suggest losing the attitude of entitlement. Summit has a long history of living up to their word. They WILL upgrade from the ramp before hiring off the street.
Right now, 15,000 hour Captains have no idea when they'll go back to work. What makes your timeline so special? Don't like Summit's answer, don't apply. They are some of the best people in this industry. Their flying is some of the most interesting you'll ever do.

You will uproot, you will work hard and you will be rewarded. Or you could stay in your basement and be mad at Ms. Semenko. Up to you.

I don't understand why questions like these are always labelled as entitled. Getting info about a realistic timeline is something every single low time pilot that is going to take a ramp job should do. If you don't, you're a fool. Now if their answer is we will definitely put you in the right seat before hiring off the street and they are known to keep their word, then that's good shit. Regardless of 15k hr captains out of work and covid and all that, why would someone move their life for a job that doesn't give a timeline or their word on upgrading from within. You say their flying is the most interesting you'll ever do, but the guy wants to know if he'll even get to do any flying in the next 3 years! I'll give you that for a young pilot interested in the position, the way to find out about these things is by applying and talking to the company, but I think it's ridiculous that any young pilot who has questions about whether or not the company is dangling a carrot is immediately labelled entitled.

[digits_]

I'd suggest losing the attitude of entitlement. Summit has a long history of living up to their word. They WILL upgrade from the ramp before hiring off the street.
Right now, 15,000 hour Captains have no idea when they'll go back to work. What makes your timeline so special? Don't like Summit's answer, don't apply. They are some of the best people in this industry. Their flying is some of the most interesting you'll ever do.

You will uproot, you will work hard and you will be rewarded. Or you could stay in your basement and be mad at Ms. Semenko. Up to you.

I don't understand why questions like these are always labelled as entitled. Getting info about a realistic timeline is something every single low time pilot that is going to take a ramp job should do. If you don't, you're a fool. Now if their answer is we will definitely put you in the right seat before hiring off the street and they are known to keep their word, then that's good shit. Regardless of 15k hr captains out of work and covid and all that, why would someone move their life for a job that doesn't give a timeline or their word on upgrading from within. You say their flying is the most interesting you'll ever do, but the guy wants to know if he'll even get to do any flying in the next 3 years! I'll give you that for a young pilot interested in the position, the way to find out about these things is by applying and talking to the company, but I think it's ridiculous that any young pilot who has questions about whether or not the company is dangling a carrot is immediately labelled entitled.

+1 !

And if one does not do their research, one is accused of joining the race to the bottom.

[Bede]

And if one does not do their research, one is accused of joining the race to the bottom.

Exactly. You're either entitled or race to the bottom.

There's a crap ton of things I wish I stood up for when I was starting out.

[flyingcanuck]

When I was starting out they told me it would be 1.5 years to 2 years on the ramp several years ago when hiring was crazy. Another story from a friend of mine is that he was ready to move out there and was told 6 - 12 months and when he got there they told him probably more like 2 years again. So from my personal experience I wouldn't trust their word on that timeline

[Commonwealth]

No one is going to score a touchdown sitting on the bench.

[‘Bob’]

This is a job to sit on the bench.

For who knows how long?

In an industry that is imploding.

When there might very well be pick up games that you can join right in.

Maybe not as “cool” of airplanes or as “cool” of flying, but lots of times one bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

Remember. What kills any sort of motivation or confidence is uncertainty. The idea that you might expend all of this energy and money for something that will leave you back at square one.

And for all of those who have had success in ramp positions as a quote “foot in the door” to a successful career... lots of people have been stuck for two years or more as they were bypassed by OTS or other rampies only to quit that company and as their Group 1 expired... ...quit aviation entirely.

[igorcanuck]

From my experience, in smaller companies flying positions usually open up when someone gets injured, pregnant, quit, etc. So they usually need someone to fill the gap in 2 weeks or less and because you’re doing a good job on the ground it’s just easier for them to hire someone OTS other than train you to fly and then another one to fill your gap.
It’s really frustrating to see OTS guys flying and you still sitting on the bench because “you’re doing a good job and we’re looking for the right replacement for you”

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I've made my position on these "Pilot-In-Waiting" positions pretty clear. In short, I think the only reason they exist is because 250hr wonder wannabes (and I will be one of them one day) are cheaper than properly training permanent employees for whatever duties those "pilots in waiting" will assume. It's an abuse of employer power and it should be illegal. It's nice to know a few people agree with me, more or less.

This posting though, doesn't even mention a timeline. This tells me the employer in question really wants to hold their cards close to their chest. They're taking this unequal arrangement and making it even more unequal, by leaving themselves the ability to promise different timelines to different candidates. It's shameful, if you ask me.

But just in case I'm wrong (it's happened once or twice ), it still can't hurt to send a resume and feel them out.

[‘Bob’]

There is absolutely nothing illegal about what you are willing to sign up for provided that it meets federal labour laws in terms of employer obligations and provincial laws regarding minimum remuneration.

There’s also nothing wrong with asking questions or defining terms. Putting it out there whether there will be a seniority based system for advancement or whether OTS will parachute out of the blue ahead of you.

But the truth is, you will have better chances of actually getting the job with the fewer conditions you bring up. Also aviation is very unpredictable and even if they tell you exactly what you want to hear, there’s no guarantee for anything.

Like I and others have said; there are pilots who are unionized under major carriers who aren’t flying right now.

[scdriver]

There is absolutely nothing illegal about what you are willing to sign up for provided that it meets federal labour laws in terms of employer obligations and provincial laws regarding minimum remuneration.

There’s also nothing wrong with asking questions or defining terms. Putting it out there whether there will be a seniority based system for advancement or whether OTS will parachute out of the blue ahead of you.

But the truth is, you will have better chances of actually getting the job with the fewer conditions you bring up. Also aviation is very unpredictable and even if they tell you exactly what you want to hear, there’s no guarantee for anything.

Like I and others have said; there are pilots who are unionized under major carriers who aren’t flying right now.

If you are less likely to get a job because you have legitimate questions about your future in the company, that is complete bullshit. Especially if it's a company that is supposedly reputable. Let me be clear I'm not saying that is the case at Summit, but I wouldn't want to work for any operator that would rather hire a different guy for the sole purpose that I wanted to know if I was gonna get jumped in line after two years of busting my ass by some guy off the street. Getting solid information about what your future will look like is absolutely necessary, and anybody who doesn't is doing themselves a disservice. I personally think that working the ramp/dock is a good way to learn and can certainly help your career, but I think any company that is hiring pilots to work the ramp should be doing so because they want to put those guys in a seat, because they want to see them flying their airplanes if they show they're hard workers and fit in, and I don't think any company with that intention would have a single issue with an applicant having a number of questions. A company that would take offence to that is a company that doesn't give a shit about the young guys they're hiring and just want cheap labour - with the occasional carrot for some guys - and it's companies like that, and to an extent the guys who take jobs there, that perpetuate the ridiculous cycle in Canadian aviation.

[digits_]

Also aviation is very unpredictable and even if they tell you exactly what you want to hear, there’s no guarantee for anything.

Those 2 statements are usually unrelated. It might be unpredictable, and pilots certainly would understand if that genuinely delays their career, but a proper policy in place will prevent a lot of grief.

The "things always change" or "aviation is unpredictable" is abused way too often for some perceived financial savings by the company. I've witnessed it happening to other people, and I've experienced it myself. All it does is destroy morale and make people quit.

Companies can not guarantee a flying spot or upgrade within x years, but they can guarantee no OTS or only a certain percentage of OTS if they wish to do so. If they don't, that's their perogative, but that has nothing to do with an unpredictable aviation market.

[‘Bob’]

There is absolutely nothing illegal about what you are willing to sign up for provided that it meets federal labour laws in terms of employer obligations and provincial laws regarding minimum remuneration.

There’s also nothing wrong with asking questions or defining terms. Putting it out there whether there will be a seniority based system for advancement or whether OTS will parachute out of the blue ahead of you.

But the truth is, you will have better chances of actually getting the job with the fewer conditions you bring up. Also aviation is very unpredictable and even if they tell you exactly what you want to hear, there’s no guarantee for anything.

Like I and others have said; there are pilots who are unionized under major carriers who aren’t flying right now.

If you are less likely to get a job because you have legitimate questions about your future in the company, that is complete bullshit. Especially if it's a company that is supposedly reputable. Let me be clear I'm not saying that is the case at Summit, but I wouldn't want to work for any operator that would rather hire a different guy for the sole purpose that I wanted to know if I was gonna get jumped in line after two years of busting my ass by some guy off the street. Getting solid information about what your future will look like is absolutely necessary, and anybody who doesn't is doing themselves a disservice. I personally think that working the ramp/dock is a good way to learn and can certainly help your career, but I think any company that is hiring pilots to work the ramp should be doing so because they want to put those guys in a seat, because they want to see them flying their airplanes if they show they're hard workers and fit in, and I don't think any company with that intention would have a single issue with an applicant having a number of questions. A company that would take offence to that is a company that doesn't give a shit about the young guys they're hiring and just want cheap labour - with the occasional carrot for some guys - and it's companies like that, and to an extent the guys who take jobs there, that perpetuate the ridiculous cycle in Canadian aviation.

Well... if they really want to hire pilots, they should stop wasting their’s and the prospective pilot’s time and hire pilots for pilot positions when they have them available.

There is no other profession in the world that hires people in unrelated menial capacities to “see if they are hard workers and fit in”. It’s pure BS for cheap indentured servitude and of course to make HR’s job easier.

Someone like me? I had a ticketed trade before I was a pilot. Do I need to prove myself? No. But at certain companies there was no way around a ramp or dock position no matter who you were if you didn’t have an ATPL with significant time.. including Summit.

What about someone who isn’t physically substantial or mechanically inclined? They might very well turn into the best pilot you’ve ever seen but because they can’t figure out a ratchet strap or some other BS thing totally unrelated to flying, they are washed out.

Meanwhile, the flying skills that are of the upmost importance to.... you know.... actually fly a plane are atrophied and these companies wonder why these pilots who haven’t flown in two years are so awful!

Then even worse, you hired a rampie who is a really hard worker and can run a Herman Nelson like nobody’s business, but he can’t fly! What an awesome way of qualifying people!

And I’m sorry, but if I started asking all kinds of hard questions to the Summit board I’m pretty sure they’d round file my resume and instead take the first submissive yes man that had the same qualifications I had.

And if they expanded super quick or contracted super quick which definitely can happen with an ad hoc company like that, there will be puppy dog eyes and the usual line of BS. The number of OTS positions HannahSemenko and others have posted on behalf of Summit while rampies are still undoubtedly slaving away proves it.

I’m just thankful I’m well past that point and even in the bad old days I never had to do any ramp bullshit.

I came here to fly. Hire a labourer to run the pallet jack or shrink wrap the pop and chips or any number of things that will add to the list of skills I will never use again in my career and prove absolutely nothing.

I’m sure there will be a huge list of them that will be available in the blade if you put “no prospects for a flying position” as a rider on the job ad. You’ll have to barricade the door!

[scdriver]

There is absolutely nothing illegal about what you are willing to sign up for provided that it meets federal labour laws in terms of employer obligations and provincial laws regarding minimum remuneration.

There’s also nothing wrong with asking questions or defining terms. Putting it out there whether there will be a seniority based system for advancement or whether OTS will parachute out of the blue ahead of you.

But the truth is, you will have better chances of actually getting the job with the fewer conditions you bring up. Also aviation is very unpredictable and even if they tell you exactly what you want to hear, there’s no guarantee for anything.

Like I and others have said; there are pilots who are unionized under major carriers who aren’t flying right now.

If you are less likely to get a job because you have legitimate questions about your future in the company, that is complete bullshit. Especially if it's a company that is supposedly reputable. Let me be clear I'm not saying that is the case at Summit, but I wouldn't want to work for any operator that would rather hire a different guy for the sole purpose that I wanted to know if I was gonna get jumped in line after two years of busting my ass by some guy off the street. Getting solid information about what your future will look like is absolutely necessary, and anybody who doesn't is doing themselves a disservice. I personally think that working the ramp/dock is a good way to learn and can certainly help your career, but I think any company that is hiring pilots to work the ramp should be doing so because they want to put those guys in a seat, because they want to see them flying their airplanes if they show they're hard workers and fit in, and I don't think any company with that intention would have a single issue with an applicant having a number of questions. A company that would take offence to that is a company that doesn't give a shit about the young guys they're hiring and just want cheap labour - with the occasional carrot for some guys - and it's companies like that, and to an extent the guys who take jobs there, that perpetuate the ridiculous cycle in Canadian aviation.

Well... if they really want to hire pilots, they should stop wasting their’s and the prospective pilot’s time and hire pilots for pilot positions when they have them available.

There is no other profession in the world that hires people in unrelated menial capacities to “see if they are hard workers and fit in”. It’s pure BS for cheap indentured servitude and of course to make HR’s job easier.

Someone like me? I had a ticketed trade before I was a pilot. Do I need to prove myself? No. But at certain companies there was no way around a ramp or dock position no matter who you were if you didn’t have an ATPL with significant time.. including Summit.

What about someone who isn’t physically substantial or mechanically inclined? They might very well turn into the best pilot you’ve ever seen but because they can’t figure out a ratchet strap or some other BS thing totally unrelated to flying, they are washed out.

Meanwhile, the flying skills that are of the upmost importance to.... you know.... actually fly a plane are atrophied and these companies wonder why these pilots who haven’t flown in two years are so awful!

Then even worse, you hired a rampie who is a really hard worker and can run a Herman Nelson like nobody’s business, but he can’t fly! What an awesome way of qualifying people!

And I’m sorry, but if I started asking all kinds of hard questions to the Summit board I’m pretty sure they’d round file my resume and instead take the first submissive yes man that had the same qualifications I had.

And if they expanded super quick or contracted super quick which definitely can happen with an ad hoc company like that, there will be puppy dog eyes and the usual line of BS. The number of OTS positions HannahSemenko and others have posted on behalf of Summit while rampies are still undoubtedly slaving away proves it.

I’m just thankful I’m well past that point and even in the bad old days I never had to do any ramp bullshit.

I came here to fly. Hire a labourer to run the pallet jack or shrink wrap the pop and chips or any number of things that will add to the list of skills I will never use again in my career and prove absolutely nothing.

I’m sure there will be a huge list of them that will be available in the blade if you put “no prospects for a flying position” as a rider on the job ad. You’ll have to barricade the door!

Well said, I agree with all of that, but that is unfortunately an ideal world where we are hired as pilots and labourers are hired as rampies - and at the moment it doesn't exist. I stand by that in this day and age where ramp jobs are almost inevitable, that asking questions about your future in the company should be expected and not something that should be held against you. I do also stand by that working on a ramp/dock can be useful, albeit not if it's two years spent there. The funny thing is Bob, if you were a younger guy (like myself) and argued against the ramp BS like that, I guarantee you would be immediately labelled as an "entitled millennial." Doesn't matter how much logic you apply, if you think pilots shouldn't have to fly a pallet jack, you're entitled. Madness.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Any more details, Ms. Semenko? What's in it for our young aviator? Any time line for movement into the right seat (ya, I get that it's Covid, and all..) Or is it just uproot, move, bust ass for an indeterminate period, and pray that Summit's decent enough that you'll promote from within, and not hire from without for nebulous 'operational reasons' (you can save a few $$ by poaching a pilot with a ppc from another company..)

By all means ask the questions, exercise the right of due diligence but loose the attitude otherwise your just part of the problem not the solution. I would have expected someone with 20+ years of experience, as you are claiming might have more to add then just rhetoric.

[shimmydampner]

No thanks - already did that sh!t 20+ years ago. Doesn't stop me from poking at the Semenkos of this world, in the hopes of making things a little better for the industry going forward.

Ahhhh yes. Making the world a better place, one anonymous, obscure internet forum post at a time. I'm sure companies search the bowels of avcanada for guidance on how best to operate. You're doing the lord's work.

[digits_]

No thanks - already did that sh!t 20+ years ago. Doesn't stop me from poking at the Semenkos of this world, in the hopes of making things a little better for the industry going forward.

Ahhhh yes. Making the world a better place, one anonymous, obscure internet forum post at a time. I'm sure companies search the bowels of avcanada for guidance on how best to operate. You're doing the lord's work.

The companies probably won't, but a lot of pilots or aspiring pilots will read the post. That might cause some of them to aks those same questions. Conditions will only improve if they are legislated to improve (unlikely) or if pilots stop applying for ground functions.

[DanWEC]

No thanks - already did that sh!t 20+ years ago. Doesn't stop me from poking at the Semenkos of this world, in the hopes of making things a little better for the industry going forward.

Ahhhh yes. Making the world a better place, one anonymous, obscure internet forum post at a time. I'm sure companies search the bowels of avcanada for guidance on how best to operate. You're doing the lord's work.

See, no offense at all, but that's the crab in the bucket mentality that keep us where we are.
I walked from the first ground job I had after a few weeks, on the best terms I could manage. Didn't the ground deal again. Got properly flying elsewhere within a few months. This was over a decade ago, and I have standing references from every single employer except that first ground exploitation experience.
I also take digs at most employers that pay a pilot less than what a full-time laborer would make in the same position. Every bit helps IMO.
If you're going to need to vet a 19 year old kid with a ground job, at least make sure they're paid and treated fairly.

[Arnie Pye]

Summit is not a Keewatin Air or Keystone. Hell, going back a while, Skyservice used to tell all their rampies that they'd take people off of the fuel trucks and move them into medevac FO's. They moved almost no one. You're essentially attacking an HR girl at the wrong company. Go after the ones that promise the sky and never deliver (see previous). Summit will upgrade from the ramp when they have a position available.

Is Perimeter offering an exact timeline for all of their Pilots in waiting? How about the guys that go to Bearskin, do they have an exact timeline of when they'll make 777 Captain because of the flow through agreements? Right now no one can give anyone a timeline to get off the ramp and into an airplane.

I don't know what you expect from Ms. Semenko. Do you want her to commit to a timeline even if she can't keep it due to a 4th wave of maskless idiots? What happens if there's a 5th wave because the tin foil hat crowd refuses to get vaccinated?

I don't like Pilot-in-waiting jobs either. I worked a few before I got into a plane. It was a different environment before things picked up circa 2018. Summit beats the hell out of working at Amazon and living in your mom's basement though. YK is awesome. Summit is the best employer up there. If I were in the early stages of my career, knowing what I know now, I'd jump on this. Oh, and go get a shot as soon as you qualify.

[digits_]

I don't know what you expect from Ms. Semenko. Do you want her to commit to a timeline even if she can't keep it due to a 4th wave of maskless idiots? What happens if there's a 5th wave because the tin foil hat crowd refuses to get vaccinated?

As I wrote before, they could guarantee they will not hire OTS, or XX % OTS. That's well within their capabilities if they wish to do so. 4th wave or not. And that's probably also the only thing people on the ramp really want to know.

[shimmydampner]

See, no offense at all, but that's the crab in the bucket mentality that keep us where we are.
I also take digs at most employers that pay a pilot less than what a full-time laborer would make in the same position. Every bit helps IMO.

Pithy metaphors aside, if you think making comments on this website is making one iota of difference you are delusional in the extreme. You say you've been fighting this righteous fight for 10 years now. How many pilot in waiting positions have you prevented in that time with your brave stance on the topic? It's a load of horse shit. If you really want to improve the lot of no time pilots, start an air service and fill the seats with them. Take a risk. But don't congratulate yourself for being the change you want to see in the world because you quit a job once and typed some shit on the internet about it after.
And for the record, my comment had nothing to do with PIW positions at all. Because I don't care one way or the other. But it's painful to watch someone patting themselves on the back for making uninformed comments on an anonymous internet forum and then try to frame it as though they're some hero standing up for the vulnerable. Talk is cheap. Typing is even cheaper.

[‘Bob’]

The funny thing is Bob, if you were a younger guy (like myself) and argued against the ramp BS like that, I guarantee you would be immediately labelled as an "entitled millennial." Doesn't matter how much logic you apply, if you think pilots shouldn't have to fly a pallet jack, you're entitled. Madness.

That’s why I laugh at digits_ signature every time I see it. It’s the Godwin’s Law of Canadian aviation.