Encore Recalls

[Tolip]

When I first read about the 224 recalls last night I have to say; I got really excited. But as I thought more and more about it, the cynical or in this case realistic side of my brain started ticking. Why would they change the recall number at this time? Why 224 ( the exact number of pilots bumping into encore). And my only conclusion is that this means the company is not planning to reconcile a new MOA on the wj side and are infact planning to layoff the 415 wj pilots. And are using these 224 recalls for 2 purposes.
1. To "recall" all the pilots currently at encore that would have been laid off. Doing this to ensure continuity and training standards for the inevitable bump downs.
2. And two, which is I think the most underhanded. By "recalling" all the current encore pilots that face layoff they actually meet the reqs of our MOA3 and now will not have to recall any encore pilots that are actually currently on leave.
So they effectively just layed off a bunch of encore pilots and now plan to just rehire them immediately in order to not have to make any real recalls.

Anyways, I've been on layoff for too long and have to much time to think about these things. On the flip side, perhaps WJ will mitigate the layoff with a new MOA and perhaps all encore pilots are about to return to work april 1st.. I sure hope so!

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Long story short, likely scenario is that WJAMEC gets an MOA with lay-off mitigation and WEN recalls 50 furloughed pilots.

Other scenario is that WJAMEC fails to secure lay-off mitigation and 224 pilots bump down into WEN. The company will increase the pilots on site by 224 and no (or very few) Encorians will be bumped out.

Either way, this is good news as we now know that the company has no intention on laying any pilots off.

[Tolip]

I think any amount of good news is a welcome sight. But a little perspective is needed, I think its welcome news for our active encore pilots on the line to know they will not be going anywhere in either outcome (and thank god for that, we need you guys where you are). But it's not good news for the laid off encoreians hoping for recall, and it's not good news for the westjet folks that will likly be loosing their current positions.

Also, another thought. If the bumpdowns do in fact happen into encore will that not mean that the encore pliot base will be insanely over staffed? 224 new westjet pilots plus the I dunno 300-400 pilots there currently?
Obviously it goes without saying if this happens, more layoffs will inevitably come to encore as soon as MOA protection is gone.

I think this next month will be very telling to the recall expectations for 2021

[simply_no_one]

Either way, this is good news as we now know that the company has no intention on laying any pilots off.

Anyone with their head on straight realized this 6+ months ago (at both WJ and AC).

[throwaway123]

Umm, I'm not entirely sure that is correct. This recall happened after the reduction bid was finalized. As I said, I'm not sure how this will pan out in the end, but by Westjet (Encore) conducting a recall right after the reduction bid, left many mainline pilots unemployed. Very dirty tactics, but I know its just business.
There are approx. 190 mainline pilots bumping into Encore. There are approx 340 Encore pilots on layoff. There is a current recall of 224 pilots to Encore, announced after the reduction bid.
Let the games begin.

I'm really trying to understand how any of this makes financial sense? The bump down and inevitable reinstatement rights to ML positions has to cost a fortune in training costs.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Umm, I'm not entirely sure that is correct. This recall happened after the reduction bid was finalized. As I said, I'm not sure how this will pan out in the end, but by Westjet (Encore) conducting a recall right after the reduction bid, left many mainline pilots unemployed. Very dirty tactics, but I know its just business.
There are approx. 190 mainline pilots bumping into Encore. There are approx 340 Encore pilots on layoff. There is a current recall of 224 pilots to Encore, announced after the reduction bid.
Let the games begin.

I'm really trying to understand how any of this makes financial sense? The bump down and inevitable reinstatement rights to ML positions has to cost a fortune in training costs.

They likely won't train the 737 drivers on the Q. Since these pilots are entitled to bump down, it's cheaper to lay them off and let them bump down into Encore to be paid as an Encore pilot (even without flying) than it is to pay them 737 pay without flying.

[Maxpwr]

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[Blue42]

Umm, I'm not entirely sure that is correct. This recall happened after the reduction bid was finalized. As I said, I'm not sure how this will pan out in the end, but by Westjet (Encore) conducting a recall right after the reduction bid, left many mainline pilots unemployed. Very dirty tactics, but I know its just business.
There are approx. 190 mainline pilots bumping into Encore. There are approx 340 Encore pilots on layoff. There is a current recall of 224 pilots to Encore, announced after the reduction bid.
Let the games begin.

I'm really trying to understand how any of this makes financial sense? The bump down and inevitable reinstatement rights to ML positions has to cost a fortune in training costs.

Will it though?? You have a ton of pilots sitting around doing nothing at min pay, the only cost is going to be power to the sim....

[Maxpwr]

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[seriousflyer]

I think the math of of 190 bump downs with 224 recalls is most correct. This equates to approximately 34 actual recalls.
However, there is a good chance that mainline makes a mitigation deal, and there will be substantially different numbers published.
This information could still be a few weeks away.
The bid results are released tmrw, but its not effective till April 1.
Similar to AC, a deal of this nature could go down to the wire.
I think there is also stock in the fact that government is pushing for airline recovery soon.

[Maxpwr]

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[pacman007]

It costs SFA to train even a full initial. A Few ground sessions followed by the only “real” cost being 6 sims + ride. Day 1 to PPC in less than a month.

This is probably true. But it’s the time it takes for 200 + pilots that’s the issue. With 1 sim how many can they possibly push through in a month? 40?maybe 50 pilots? So by the time
You train everyone recalls will be happening. And I think you guys have the option to go to swoop do
You not? So any swoop recalls will be WestJet pilots from encore also. You can correct me
If I’m wrong but I think that’s how it will work for you guys.

[DirtyDashDriver]

But it’s the time it takes for 200 + pilots that’s the issue. With 1 sim how many can they possibly push through in a month? 40?maybe 50 pilots?

To be clear, sim time is not what will cause the delay in training for anyone bumping down from mainline to Encore, it is the lack of flying. Let's say only 150 pilots require line indoctrination and consolidation, that'll be somewhere between 7,500 and 22,500 hours depending on which scale the pilots can be consolidated under. I have no clue how many hours Encore is flying in a month, but I doubt it's anywhere near those numbers. That means that some, if not most, will go through multiple rounds of line indoc until they're consolidated.

It makes no sense for Encore to go ahead and train all the bump downs quickly because they'll just end up sitting in line indoc purgatory. My guess is that quite a few of those bump downs will be sitting at home earning the minimum MMG waiting for the backlog to clear. By the time is all said and done, it'll be no less than 8 months to a year before everyone is trained assuming everything goes tickity boo.

[pacman007]

So what will all the bump down pilots do? Sit at home and not get trained?

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

So what will all the bump down pilots do? Sit at home and not get trained?

PTA promises them a job at Encore... it doesn’t promise an expedient training.

[Yycjetdriver]

So what will all the bump down pilots do? Sit at home and not get trained?

PTA promises them a job at Encore... it doesn’t promise an expedient training.

Far far far cheaper to have them sitting at home doing nothing at any Encore wage than what they would be making on a reduced block had MOA4 passed.

[Blue42]

So what will all the bump down pilots do? Sit at home and not get trained?

PTA promises them a job at Encore... it doesn’t promise an expedient training.

Some are already scheduled to be trained in April, many will not though...

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Have we heard any updates on more recalls?

[Tolip]

Have we heard any updates on more recalls?

Havnt herd anything on the encore side of things, as of the most recent WJ bump downs, encore has all the pilots they need (and then some) what we really need to see is recalls at westjet so that we can free up some seats at encore for recalls. I think encore is actually staffing almost as many active pilots now as they were in 2019 (just all the seats being occupied by mainliners) Likly wont hear anything new until current MOA ends.

But some good news tho, sounds like some recalls are being planned at jazz for like 150 pilots and potentially alot more come fall. And if jazz is doing that, I assume we will see encore doing the same. Just no word on it yet

[pacman007]

What happens when the current MOA ends? Is it the same as WestJet? More layoffs if they snap back?

[Tolip]

What happens when the current MOA ends? Is it the same as WestJet? More layoffs if they snap back?

Well current MOA for encore ends in june, So we will just have to wait and see what the outlook is at that time and what kind of bargaining goes on between the company and union. Two possible outcomes that I see

One; with encore being so overstaffed, the company may choose to end MOA protections and at that time could lay off more encore pilots and train more of the bumpdowns that came from WJ.

Or two; with a better out look on the horizon and with new government spending programs that help cover the cost of rehiring staff and the extension of CEWS, the company/union may come to a favorable new MOA4 agreement with conditions in it for recalls. We will just have to wait and see, I'm optimistic

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

Check your email and have a wonderful day!

[shawnthesheep]

Check your email and have a wonderful day!

125 Recalls by July 1

[Yycjetdriver]

Check your email and have a wonderful day!

125 Recalls by July 1

Safe to assume those spots will all be filled with mainline pilots?
Given the recent round of 400 layoffs and the fact most of them had a fair amount of seniority.

[shawnthesheep]

Check your email and have a wonderful day!

125 Recalls by July 1

Safe to assume those spots will all be filled with mainline pilots?
Given the recent round of 400 layoffs and the fact most of them had a fair amount of seniority.

Sounds like this is all new guys. This isn't a reduction bid. It's gonna be all laid off guys