OMNR Tanker gear up

[digits_]

The sea/land switch is the most important part of that system.

If it's in sea mode, there is no warning with gear up.

That's likely not the issue here. Even in ground mode, the gear warning will not come on if there is a certain amount of power set. During a flapless approach, it is likely the power setting was above this treshold, and thus no gear warning horn.

[fish4life]

The sea/land switch is the most important part of that system.

If it's in sea mode, there is no warning with gear up.

That's likely not the issue here. Even in ground mode, the gear warning will not come on if there is a certain amount of power set. During a flapless approach, it is likely the power setting was above this treshold, and thus no gear warning horn.

In every aircraft I’ve flown you need more power with flaps down then up.

[‘Bob’]

How many people have died because the gear was up?

Just curious as to why it’s called a killer item?

Isn’t a rotating beacon a killer item because someone might not be alerted to the presence of the aircraft?

[pelmet]

How many people have died because the gear was up?

Just curious as to why it’s called a killer item?

In the past year.......

1. https://news.sky.com/story/pakistan-pla ... t-11994336

2. https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20in%20two.

Next.

[pelmet]

That’s right! The flight crew failed to execute one checklist correctly, so the obvious answer is.... another checklist!

Remembering to “check the Killer Items” would truly save this flight, and the crews flying record.

I’m fascinated by the logic that points to this as the most intelligent response to make. How is that any more helpful than “remembering to lower the gear would truly save this flight and the crew’s flying record.”?

Because if we use your method, one only needs to forget once. With my method, you have to forget twice.

Do you really think it is not reasonably intelligent to do what I do. Not only double check the gear is down but even check the fuel selectors/boost pump position and a couple of other things on final after the checklist is complete.

[digits_]

The sea/land switch is the most important part of that system.

If it's in sea mode, there is no warning with gear up.

That's likely not the issue here. Even in ground mode, the gear warning will not come on if there is a certain amount of power set. During a flapless approach, it is likely the power setting was above this treshold, and thus no gear warning horn.

In every aircraft I’ve flown you need more power with flaps down then up.

If you fly the same approach path at the same speed, sure, but if your SOPs are that you have to fly faster and shallower, that comparison isn't valid anymore.

To clarify, I am not familiar with the OMNR SOPs, they might do things differently.

[photofly]

That’s right! The flight crew failed to execute one checklist correctly, so the obvious answer is.... another checklist!

Remembering to “check the Killer Items” would truly save this flight, and the crews flying record.

I’m fascinated by the logic that points to this as the most intelligent response to make. How is that any more helpful than “remembering to lower the gear would truly save this flight and the crew’s flying record.”?

Because if we use your method, one only needs to forget once. With my method, you have to forget twice. It is called Two Factor Authentication.

Be honest, do you really think it is not reasonably intelligent to do what I do. Not only double check the gear is down but even check the fuel selectors/boost pump position and a couple of other things on final after the checklist is complete.

I don't have a "method" - but I'm sure that advising "double check everything important" isn't the safety solution you think it is.

First it's not 2FA. It's just repeating things. 1FA-repeated, if you like. Asking people to input a password twice is less secure than asking them to do it once, not more so. But that's probably stretching your analogy further than it warrants.

If ones takeaway from a gear-up is "pilot should have double-checked the gear" what you're really saying is "the pilot forgot to lower the gear - but that's ok. Then they forgot to check the gear on the checklist - but that's ok, too. No, the real failure was the failure to double-check the gear".

With respect, the double-checking is not the issue. The issue is that the gear wasn't lowered at the right time. Putting the emphasis on the failure to double check something isn't correct.

Yes, it's sensible to double check things. But it's also very obvious. So obvious I don't think there's any benefit in saying it. I know you advocate "making it a habit", and doing "every single time" - but I can also advocate making it a habit to lower the landing gear, "every single time". Pilots don't need to be told to double check things. If a pilot can reliably double check something they can reliably do it right the first time. They (we) need to be better at doing things right, at the right time, the first time.

Deakin spotted the gear-up situation because he checked around the flight deck in an idle moment before landing. Not as an SOP as you suggest, but just 'because'. But his takeaway from the event wasn't "It's ok because I double checked", or any flavour of something similar. He didn't say "guys, double check your gear!"

[ayseven]

I have hundreds of hours of big boat time, including CL215. They blew it. End of.

[pelmet]

With respect, the double-checking is not the issue. The issue is that the gear wasn't lowered at the right time. Putting the emphasis on the failure to double check something isn't correct.

Yes, it's sensible to double check things. But it's also very obvious. So obvious I don't think there's any benefit in saying it. I know you advocate "making it a habit", and doing "every single time" - but I can also advocate making it a habit to lower the landing gear, "every single time". Pilots don't need to be told to double check things. If a pilot can reliably double check something they can reliably do it right the first time. They (we) need to be better at doing things right, at the right time, the first time.

I find myself checking the gear is down multiple times on light aircraft on final. In fact, at least three times is recommended.

Situations can vary. But I have a policy for retractable light aircraft in general on arrival(Obviously different from CL-415 and most commercial ops). Within reason.........the first time I think of putting the gear down is when it gets selected down, because it may be the last time I think about putting the gear down.

What is 'within reason'? Aside from the obvious speed limitations on the gear, it is subjective and can vary from aircraft to aircraft and even location. As an example, I was renting a Mooney out of of an airport in the U.S. It is a busy airport and arrival from the west has issues of loads of traffic, specific routing requirements, multiple stepdowns in order to stay just below class B airspace yet important noise abatement issues, leading one to skim the base of that class B airspace. In addition, the airport is in a valley and difficult to find until quite close and the class B airspace from the nearby primary airport ends up so low that one literally passes unusually low over the ridgeline covered in houses perhaps a half mile west of the airport. There are also parallel runways that one is concerned about and you may end up landing on either one of them. It is a busy arrival and one arrival can be quite different from the next.

For me, I decided that the gear goes down followed by most of the checklist very early prior to crossing the shoreline where things usually get really busy. Then it is out of the way and if I get really busy, the gear wont be forgotten. On my last recurrency check, the instructor wasn't that happy about me putting it down early and then later admitted that he was going to try to distract me and see if I would forget the gear as many of his students apparently have. He did also feel that I could wait until quite close to the airport But by selecting the gear down early, it was out of the way and any distractions wouldn't have caused a problem for me. That's an example of how you prevent gear up landings.

[7ECA]

In fact, at least three times is recommended.

By whom? Who is recommending that one checks the gear position three times? I guarantee it's not the manufacturer, via a checklist/AFM/POH, etc.

[co-joe]

I'm pretty sure I can think of at least a few times the flapless training scenario has led to a gear up landing. You're expecting a higher than normal approach speed, a lower than normal power setting to slow down, and you're preoccupied with the failure, and you get hot and high and get distracted. For me this sits squarely on the shoulders of the trainer. The possibility of this happening has to be in the threat briefing before doing a flapless approach. It should be in the flapless landing checklist.

[pelmet]

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[PilotDAR]

If it's in sea mode, there is no warning with gear up.

That's likely not the issue here. Even in ground mode, the gear warning will not come on if there is a certain amount of power set. During a flapless approach, it is likely the power setting was above this treshold, and thus no gear warning horn.

In aircraft certification, silence is not a warning. I had this discussion while right seat to a TC test pilot in February. I opened the topic, and he turned to me and repeated back, very formally: "Silence is not a warning." - to which I replied: "Unless it's coming from your wife." He laughed, as we continued the climb.

I cannot accept the absence of a aural indicator as a warning, only a something as a warning, not a nothing. I am not familiar with CL215/415 systems, but I am very familiar with training in amphibians. It is not the first time I have written it here, for every RG plane I fly, I will speak the surface I'm going to land on, and the position of the landing gear relative to that surface, twice before short final. I will speak it aloud, as then there is no silence. This, because some amphibians have no aural landing gear position warning system, and even if they did, the plane does not know the surface you're intending to land on.

I did it today, and I had not even retracted the gear after takeoff (no water landing intended). "Wheels are down for landing on land", while looking at the wheels, the green light, and the selector position. It is my preference to do it twice. No one recommends that to me, 'just my thing. Anyone I train in an amphib will speak it twice while flying with me, or (as briefed on the ground before hand), I'll call a go around.

I've flown a couple of dozen different amphibians over the decades, with a great variation of landing gear systems between them. The only commonality in all of these systems, and assurance that I can have that there has been an aural landing gear position annunciation relative to the landing surface, is if I have made it myself.

This extends beyond amphibious airplanes to ski planes as well, as, similarly, they rarely have ski/wheel position annunciation, and wrong landing gear position can end pretty poorly in a skiplane too! If you're intending to ditch an RG landplane, I can see wisdom in stating out loud that the "landing gear is retracted for ditching". No one riding in the plane with you is going to criticize you speaking the landing gear position as you verify it, and landing surface. If they criticize you saying it twice, just tell them you're nervous about making a mistake, and double checking - for me it's the truth.

[tractor driver]

During initial Fireboss training by Wipaire (the manufacturer), we were trained to verify gear position 3x on each landing or scoop. So far so good, definitely a show stopper if missed.

[mmm..bacon]

....Which works every single time - until it doesn't: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/66631

[pelmet]

In fact, at least three times is recommended.

By whom? Who is recommending that one checks the gear position three times? I guarantee it's not the manufacturer, via a checklist/AFM/POH, etc.

I guess they might have other ways that fit into the etc. category.......

During initial Fireboss training by Wipaire (the manufacturer), we were trained to verify gear position 3x on each landing or scoop. So far so good, definitely a show stopper if missed.

Be careful with the guarantees.

[photofly]

What is the response, in training, if the gear is incorrect and noticed only at the second, or even third check?

Is that considered to be "acceptable" performance?

[challenger_nami]

What is the response, in training, if the gear is incorrect and noticed only at the second, or even third check?

Is that considered to be "acceptable" performance?

The response SHOULD be:

Noticing At Second Check: “we Poo-Pooed the first time, let’s clean up our poo-poo before anyone else notices we poo-pooed ”

Noticing At THIRD CHECK: we REALLY f***ed up the first 2 times, let’s clean up our poo-poo before anyone else notices we poo-pooed .... and DEFINITELY before we end up on AvCanada, because we heroically belly landed a perfectly good aircraft.”

Transport Canada must mandate Every single Air Operator to add the above to their SOP’s


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[photofly]

So, no thought given to why we poo-poo’ed, or how not to poo-poo again? Just fix it and make sure nobody notices we poo-poo’ed?

That’s what you want TC to mandate?

[PilotDAR]

What is the response, in training, if the gear is incorrect and noticed only at the second, or even third check?

Is that considered to be "acceptable" performance?

My logic on this, and its' totally my personal way of doing things, is twice. If you do the second check, and find that the gear is not where you think it should be, something is seriously wrong (= not acceptable), and you need to ask yourself what and why. From my awareness of what goes on, the thing which you may shockingly realize is that your first check was interrupted before you completed it. *

The airport and "normal circuit" environment is pretty predictable, and is a better background for a checklist flow. However, when maneuvering for a water landing, the situation can be a little more dynamic. Passengers, maneuvering around an unusual "circuit", or changing conditions can distract you, and interrupt your checklist flow. That is why I have assigned in my mind, landing gear position less as a "checklist" item, and more as a totally basic piloting thing (like lowering the nose to prevent an accidental stall), you just do it because you know you should.

The act of selecting the landing gear position is not the basic thing, it's that act of breaking your mental focus for a moment to step back, and confirm what you're intending to land on, and where your gear is for that. A chatty passenger, or your seeing a boat coming around the point, can interrupt that check. So, I discipline myself to do it twice, to be sure that the second time was not subject to my being distracted.

If Wipline trains me to do it three times in their plane, I'll do it three times! I used to think decades back that I was a good pilot, and I could manage and just member to do everything properly. Since then, I've seen many better pilots than I get it wrong, so I'll follow a defined action - twice.

* Is why I'm not so keen on checklist segments with many items. If you were interrupted, you should start that section of the checklist again from the beginning. Having only a few items to repeat for that checklist section is preferable to having to repeat 20 or more.

[pelmet]

What is the response, in training, if the gear is incorrect and noticed only at the second, or even third check?
Is that considered to be "acceptable" performance?

So, no thought given to why we poo-poo’ed, or how not to poo-poo again? Just fix it and make sure nobody notices we poo-poo’ed?
That’s what you want TC to mandate?

Unfortunately, there are some that are more interested in opposing my recommendations just because we have disagreed on things in the past rather than asking themselves if it actually makes sense and increases safety.

Seeing as it was brought up, here is what TC has to say......

"Three things to remember when operating a retractable gear aircraft:

Always use the checklist: This is self-explanatory. However, aircraft operational tasks and associated checklist items don't all have the same value.
Items related to retractable gear operations are high priority. If your checklist includes the G.U.M.P.S. mnemonic, remember that the G stands for "gas" and the U stands for "undercarriage"!

Always fly a stabilized approach: Pilots who consistently fly stabilized approaches are much less likely to forget critical steps, such as lowering the landing gear. The key to achieve consistency is through practice, repetition and by flying the same stable approach all the time.

Always confirm GEAR DOWN AND LOCKED 3 TIMES: Confirm a minimum of three times that your retractable landing gear is down and locked. These three times may differ depending on aircraft, checklist, position and situation. This is where you can "imprint" in your mind at least three moments to check the gear. The constant remains to always CHECK GEAR DOWN AND LOCKED 3 TIMES."

https://tc.canada.ca/en/aviation/public ... p-2228e-40

Need I say any more?

[digits_]

Let's say you find yourself on short final, you lower the gear and you confirm 3 green. You've only checked the gear once. You don't have time to check it 2 more times as you are approaching minimums on your approach. Are you going to go around because you only checked it once? Or do you land?

[challenger_nami]

Let's say you find yourself on short final, you lower the gear and you confirm 3 green. You've only checked the gear once. You don't have time to check it 2 more times as you are approaching minimums on your approach. Are you going to go around because you only checked it once? Or do you land?

If you FIND yourself on SHORT final without your 3 Greens, you should Go Around and try your approach again.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever. Because you should never ever just FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed down with 3 greens.

.

[digits_]

Let's say you find yourself on short final, you lower the gear and you confirm 3 green. You've only checked the gear once. You don't have time to check it 2 more times as you are approaching minimums on your approach. Are you going to go around because you only checked it once? Or do you land?

If you FIND yourself on SHORT final without your 3 Greens, you should Go Around and try your approach again.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever. Because you should never ever FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed down with 3 greens.

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Lowering the gear at or just before the FAF is not that late. How much time does there need to be between the 3 checks?

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[TrilliumFlt]

Those who qualify as "older" pilots may recall when ATC was your friend and wouldn't issue a landing clearance until "3 green" was confirmed with them. The good old days before the lawyers snuck in the back door and issues a "cease & desist" order due to "liability" risk.

It was also long enough ago that the Sault Tower would have still been operational with "eyes on" all landing aircraft.