OMNR Tanker gear up

[pelmet]

By whom? Who is recommending that one checks the gear position three times? I guarantee it's not the manufacturer, via a checklist/AFM/POH, etc.

I guess they might have other ways that fit into the etc. category.......

During initial Fireboss training by Wipaire (the manufacturer), we were trained to verify gear position 3x on each landing or scoop. So far so good, definitely a show stopper if missed.

Be careful with the guarantees.

After losing credibility, This should be a good place for 7ECA to quit talking ... maybe even quit flying ... if (s)he is even a real pilot.

Actually, he never had any credibility with me. Not sure why he would with anyone else.

“Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.”

― Mark Twain

Let's say you find yourself on short final, you lower the gear and you confirm 3 green. You've only checked the gear once. You don't have time to check it 2 more times as you are approaching minimums on your approach. Are you going to go around because you only checked it once? Or do you land?

Why don't you ask TC. It is their recommendation.

[pelmet]

Lowering the gear at or just before the FAF is not that late. How much time does there need to be between the 3 checks?

Why don't you ask TC. Its their recommendation.

Gotta love all the posters that would likely hit me over the head for advocating the breaking of a regulation, suddenly start(or really want to start) questioning a recommendation from the same source. All because it backs up my recommendation.

Now the silly questions come out such as what if I didn't check three times on short final. But it still doesn't match my favourite question, said to be relevent, asked on this very subject of double checking certain things......

"Here’s another relevant question: why am I able correctly to sequence the complicated configuration of getting washed and dressed in the morning, without putting my underpants on my head or forgetting my socks? That’s a way harder and more complicated set of tasks than configuring an airplane for takeoff, but not only do I not need a silent secret safety check before heading down for breakfast, I don’t need a checklist at all. Why is that?"

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=119186&p=1147833& ... s#p1147833

Next.

[digits_]

Lowering the gear at or just before the FAF is not that late. How much time does there need to be between the 3 checks?

Why don't you ask TC. Its their recommendation.

Gotta love all the posters that would likely hit me over the head for advocating the breaking of a regulation, suddenly start(or really want to start) questioning a recommendation from the same source. All because it backs up my recommendation.

Without further information, the TC recommendation is quite useless as well. They tell you to check it 3 times, don't define at what time you should check it, but also write
" These three times may differ depending on aircraft, checklist, position and situation."

Ok, let's say I want to follow this recommendation. My aircraft POH and checklist does not tell me to check the gear 3 times. My SOPs don't call for it either. My position is on final approach. Situation is I'm on an IFR approach.

So when do I need to check it 3 times? How much time does there need to be between the 3 checks? Or do you check it 3 times within a 10 second interval. If so, what's the point of doing 3 checks?

As mentioned in the other topics, it's like saying "don't crash". Cool. Now tell me how.

[challenger_nami]

Let's say you find yourself on short final, you lower the gear and you confirm 3 green. You've only checked the gear once. You don't have time to check it 2 more times as you are approaching minimums on your approach. Are you going to go around because you only checked it once? Or do you land?

If you FIND yourself on SHORT final without your 3 Greens, you should Go Around and try your approach again.

MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever. Because you should never ever FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed down with 3 greens.

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Lowering the gear at or just before the FAF is not that late. How much time does there need to be between the 3 checks?

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I personally consider short final 2 mile final or less. But I guess you (referring to the questioner: @digits) consider short final at or just before FAF.... that is fine:

A standard RNAV FAF is at 4 mile final... pretty much the same for most modern ILS with some older NDB type FAFs being around 5 mile. On a standard 3 degree glide slope, the aircraft is at FAF (4 Mike) at around 1200’-1350’ AGL.

In IMC, Many companies require the flight crew to have all the checklists completed and have stabilized the aircraft by FAF (1000’ AGL in some companies), otherwise go around.

Now, if you simply FIND yourself at FAF without landing gear Confirmed at proper position:
. You must wonder, what other item you forgot.. where there is one, there is more.

. Then when You extend/retract the gears, your drag changes, the air speed changes, and you must all the sudden add/reduce power.... that means your approach is not stabilized and you should go around.


MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever, before someone gets hurt. You should never EVER just FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed at proper position...

now you should investigate why you found yourself on short final without gears at proper position...
. Did you just recover from a faint or seizure attack?
. Did you fall asleep while flying?
. Did you get temporarily incapacitated due to alcohol, drugs or medication?
. Did you not pay attention because you had your head down, doing something or doing someone a favour?


No one likes a pilot who just finds themselves on short final without their landing gears being at their proper position. Not cool.



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[PilotDAR]

Several posts suggest to check that you have three greens on short final or go around. Drilling that into a pilot's head is not the best idea if they're going to be flying amphibians. Three green on short final to a water landing could be fatal. Confirming that "they're down" while flying on wheel skis could be really bad for a dry runway landing.

It's more important to think about what you're doing, than just do the same thing by rote. I have had to train out this whole "wheels down" thing while training amphibian pilots - and what kind of airplane is this thread about?

Observe and speak the landing gear position, and speak the surface for that landing.

[digits_]

I personally consider short final 2 mile final or less. But I guess you consider short final at or just before FAF.... that is fine:

A standard RNAV FAF is at 4 mile final... pretty much the same for most ILS. On a standard 3 degree glide slope, the aircraft is at FAF at 1200’ AGL.

In IMC, Many companies require the flight crew to have all the checklists completed and have stabilized the aircraft by FAF ... or 1000’ AGL in some companies.

Now, if you simply FIND yourself at FAF without 3 Greens Confirmed:
. You must wonder, what other item you forgot.. where there is one, there is more.

. Then You extend the gears, and now your drag increases, the air speed decreases, and you must all the sudden add power.... that means your approach is not stabilized and you should go around.


MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever, before someone gets hurt. You should never EVER just FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed down with 3 greens...

now you should investigate why you found yourself on short final without gears down...
. Did you just recover from a seizure attack?
. Did you fall sleep while flying?
. Did you get temporarily incapacitated due to alcohol?


No one likes a pilot that just finds themselves on short final without their landing gears at their proper position. Not cool.

You are ignoring my question.
You lower the gear at 1200 ft AGL, you are stable by 1000 ft, you run the checklist. You are past the FAF, on short final, and you have confirmed that the gear is where it's supposed to be, once.

How long do I have to wait before I check it a second time? Or a third time?

[challenger_nami]

You are ignoring my question.
You lower the gear at 1200 ft AGL, you are stable by 1000 ft, you run the checklist. You are past the FAF, on short final, and you have confirmed that the gear is where it's supposed to be, once.

How long do I have to wait before I check it a second time? Or a third time?

I answered your question, but now you are changing the question.

Answer my question, and I will give you hopefully one last tailored answer:
QUESTION: what type of aircraft are you flying in the above hypothetical situation?

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[pelmet]

I personally consider short final 2 mile final or less. But I guess you consider short final at or just before FAF.... that is fine:

A standard RNAV FAF is at 4 mile final... pretty much the same for most ILS. On a standard 3 degree glide slope, the aircraft is at FAF at 1200’ AGL.

In IMC, Many companies require the flight crew to have all the checklists completed and have stabilized the aircraft by FAF ... or 1000’ AGL in some companies.

Now, if you simply FIND yourself at FAF without 3 Greens Confirmed:
. You must wonder, what other item you forgot.. where there is one, there is more.

. Then You extend the gears, and now your drag increases, the air speed decreases, and you must all the sudden add power.... that means your approach is not stabilized and you should go around.


MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever, before someone gets hurt. You should never EVER just FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed down with 3 greens...

now you should investigate why you found yourself on short final without gears down...
. Did you just recover from a seizure attack?
. Did you fall sleep while flying?
. Did you get temporarily incapacitated due to alcohol?


No one likes a pilot that just finds themselves on short final without their landing gears at their proper position. Not cool.

You are ignoring my question.
You lower the gear at 1200 ft AGL, you are stable by 1000 ft, you run the checklist. You are past the FAF, on short final, and you have confirmed that the gear is where it's supposed to be, once.

How long do I have to wait before I check it a second time? Or a third time?

Can you believe that licensed pilot doesn't actually know this. The rest of us all learned on our first day of ground school for the private licence that the time interval for checking is 4.6 (+/- 0.3) seconds. Anyone who doesn't know this obvious answer and thinks that TC needs to actually give it to you isn't a competent pilot.

Next ridiculous question.

[photofly]

Im detecting checklist inflation here. Pelmet was recommending checking things twice. Now we’re on to three times. Will it be four soon?

I’m not saying two is wrong, or three is wrong, or four is wrong. I just don’t think it’s about counting.

Pelmet kindly posted a report about an accident caused by a rudder trim wrongly set. According to the report, it was in the checklist five times. For that pilot, checking three times wasn’t enough, checking five times wasn’t enough. Logic dictates six was the appropriate number of times to check. His only error was not checking a sixth time.

So let’s stick with three. I still want to know, if it’s SOP to check something three times, does that mean it’s ok if only the third check reveals it hasn’t been done? Is that a pass, all systems normal, or a fail, we fucked up? The document from TC doesn’t address the issue.

If it’s a “fail, we fucked up”, do we just land, put it to bed and forget about it? Or something else?

[Old fella]

Several posts suggest to check that you have three greens on short final or go around. Drilling that into a pilot's head is not the best idea if they're going to be flying amphibians. Three green on short final to a water landing could be fatal. Confirming that "they're down" while flying on wheel skis could be really bad for a dry runway landing.

It's more important to think about what you're doing, than just do the same thing by rote. I have had to train out this whole "wheels down" thing while training amphibian pilots - and what kind of airplane is this thread about?

Observe and speak the landing gear position, and speak the surface for that landing.

Indeed PilotDAR, going back to my initial CV14 training days ‘70s and subsequent active duty years. There are times the wheels are up and times they are down, I did hear stories on nose doors not closed properly with consequences, luckily not on my watch. The ole boat was a handful with 800 gallons of water.

[challenger_nami]

Several posts suggest to check that you have three greens on short final or go around. Drilling that into a pilot's head is not the best idea if they're going to be flying amphibians. Three green on short final to a water landing could be fatal. Confirming that "they're down" while flying on wheel skis could be really bad for a dry runway landing.

It's more important to think about what you're doing, than just do the same thing by rote. I have had to train out this whole "wheels down" thing while training amphibian pilots - and what kind of airplane is this thread about?

Observe and speak the landing gear position, and speak the surface for that landing.

Very Valid point DAR,
I personally am more tuned to IFR world and My post was geared toward IFR Land aircraft as indicated by terms like FAF, ILS, Glide slope etc.

I am modifying my previous post as follows to encompass more flying situations:
I replaced Landing Gear Down, or 3 Green confirmed, with Landing Gear at proper position or as such.

I personally consider short final 2 mile final or less. But I guess you (referring to the questioner: @digits) consider short final at or just before FAF.... that is fine:

A standard RNAV FAF is at 4 mile final... pretty much the same for most modern ILS with some older NDB type FAFs being around 5 mile. On a standard 3 degree glide slope, the aircraft is at FAF (4 Mike) at around 1200’-1350’ AGL.

In IMC, Many companies require the flight crew to have all the checklists completed and have stabilized the aircraft by FAF (1000’ AGL in some companies), otherwise go around.

Now, if you simply FIND yourself at FAF without landing gear Confirmed at proper position:
. You must wonder, what other item you forgot.. where there is one, there is more.

. Then when You extend/retract the gears, your drag changes, the air speed changes, and you must all the sudden add/reduce power.... that means your approach is not stabilized and you should go around.


MOST IMPORTANTLY: after you land, then walk out of the airplane with your pride intact and QUIT flying for ever, before someone gets hurt. You should never EVER just FIND yourself on short final without gears confirmed at proper position...

now you should investigate why you found yourself on short final without gears at proper position...
. Did you just recover from a faint or seizure attack?
. Did you fall asleep while flying?
. Did you get temporarily incapacitated due to alcohol, drugs or medication?
. Did you not pay attention because you had your head down, doing something or doing someone a favour?


No one likes a pilot who just finds themselves on short final without their landing gears being at their proper position. Not cool.

[pelmet]

Im detecting checklist inflation here. Pelmet was recommending checking things twice. Now we’re on to three times. Will it be four soon?

I’m not saying two is wrong, or three is wrong, or four is wrong. I just don’t think it’s about counting.

Pelmet kindly posted a report about an accident caused by a rudder trim wrongly set. According to the report, it was in the checklist five times. For that pilot, checking three times wasn’t enough, checking five times wasn’t enough. Logic dictates six was the appropriate number of times to check. His only error was not checking a sixth time.

So let’s stick with three. I still want to know, if it’s SOP to check something three times, does that mean it’s ok if only the third check reveals it hasn’t been done? Is that a pass, all systems normal, or a fail, we fucked up? The document from TC doesn’t address the issue.

If it’s a “fail, we fucked up”, do we just land, put it to bed and forget about it? Or something else?

I suggest you contact TC directly if you have a problem with their recommendation. Perhaps they will have an analysis for your ridiculous questions such as how many accidents have been prevented and why you don't accidentally put your underwear on your head in the morning.

[photofly]

I can certainly ask TC. But I'm interested in your opinion.

If it’s a “fail, we fucked up”, do we just land, put it to bed and forget about it? Or something else?

More questions:
Is there any data to support three as the right number of times to check the gear? Who decided on three, and why?
If you check the gear twice, and it's definitely ok both times, do you still need to check it the third time?
If it's wrong at the first check, and then you fix it, are the next two checks still required?
If you miss the first two checks, and make the third, do you need to add two more checks so the total number of successful checks is three?
What if the first two checks show the gear is in the right place, but the third shows it's in the wrong place? What do you do then? Majority vote? or latest-takes-precedence?
If you do only two checks, but successfully land with the gear in the right place - is that ok, because you landed successfully? Or still a fail because you omitted a required safety check?

I must be really dumb, because the more I ask about this procedure, the less I understand what TC is recommending.

[challenger_nami]

I must be really dumb, because the more I ask about this procedure, the less I understand what TC is recommending.

You just said it yourself, not me or anyone else. But don’t beat yourself too much for it. None of us are perfect.

And I hope you understand my humour

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[pelmet]

C-GOGH, a Canadair CL-215-6B11 (Series CL-415) operated by the Province of Ontario, Ministry
of Natural Resources, was conducting a local training flight at the Sault Ste. Marie Airport, ON
(CYAM). While conducting the third circuit on runway 12, the flight crew inadvertently landed the
aircraft with the landing gear retracted. The aircraft came to a stop on the runway surface. There
was significant damage to the belly of the aircraft. There were no injuries.

[Bede]

Im detecting checklist inflation here. Pelmet was recommending checking things twice. Now we’re on to three times. Will it be four soon?

I just stare at the gear lights from the FAF until touchdown. Just don't take your eyes off those lights.

[rookiepilot]

Im detecting checklist inflation here. Pelmet was recommending checking things twice. Now we’re on to three times. Will it be four soon?

I’m not saying two is wrong, or three is wrong, or four is wrong. I just don’t think it’s about counting.

Pelmet kindly posted a report about an accident caused by a rudder trim wrongly set. According to the report, it was in the checklist five times. For that pilot, checking three times wasn’t enough, checking five times wasn’t enough. Logic dictates six was the appropriate number of times to check. His only error was not checking a sixth time.

So let’s stick with three. I still want to know, if it’s SOP to check something three times, does that mean it’s ok if only the third check reveals it hasn’t been done? Is that a pass, all systems normal, or a fail, we fucked up? The document from TC doesn’t address the issue.

If it’s a “fail, we fucked up”, do we just land, put it to bed and forget about it? Or something else?

Inflation is a theme I believe is happening....why not in checklists?

[NotDirty!]

Maybe there should be a light that comes on when you have checked the gear… you could put it next to a walk around light that only comes on once you have completed the walkaround. The engine shouldn’t be able to start without a walkaround light, and maybe you shouldn’t be able to pull the power to idle without the gear check light. Maybe the gear check light should only come on after two or three checks of the gear…..

[Old fella]

Im detecting checkLIST inflation here. Pelmet was recommending checking things TWICE. Now we’re on to three times. Will it be four soon?

Well here is a novel idea, let’s get the opinion of that well known aviator Santa Claus( are you listening Santa). He got thousands of flying hours under his chubby belly, been flying umpteen years in many tight places , flies the same airworthy rig with plenty of thrust from each four leg furry engine in very challenging weather to meet a demanding schedule. After all:
He's making a LIST,
He's checking it TWICE,
He's gonna find out who's naughty or nice
Santa Claus is coming to town

Now I will wager next month’s pension cheque ole Santa would no doubt be trolled by…let me guess.

[PilotDAR]

Santa Claus......... flies the same airworthy rig

Ahhh... If I recall, one of the powerplants has a red light on?

[photofly]

Here's a more thoughtful response to problems with checks not being done - more thoughtful than just "check it three times". It's from the Flight Safety Foundation's Approach and Landing Accident Reduction toolkit at https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Fli ... AR_Toolkit

Here's the briefing note on "Normal Checklists"
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/848.pdf

I can't copy the text but here's a screenshot of a relevant section:

Screen Shot 2021-05-11 at 7.45.28 AM.png (231.79 KiB) Viewed 2535 times

It's quite "airline" style, but that should suit some posters in this thread. I don't know if it's useful to the more "git-er-done" approach common in flying small airplanes. However there isn't anything there about running checklists two or three times, or double checking things on an ad-hoc basis.

This section on managing distractions might also be helpful:
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/853.pdf

[PilotDAR]

While test flying a client's Caravan a few months ago, and using their checklist with care, I noticed that a few items are repeated in the various steps pre takeoff. I found this distracting, and causing me mental disconnect of "didn't I already do that?" So, I'm not a fan of the same item appearing multiple times on a checklist, for the reasons mentioned - with the exception of amphibian landing gear position checks - for the reasons I have mentioned. .

[valleyboy]

As always the drift here is confusing. It appears to me that we have gone from a 705/121 multi-crew type aircraft to private pilot stuff or single pilot. It seems to me these "rules of thumb" are just that. Personal opinion and a few points based on what TC suggests for new pilots.

Commercial operations and multi-crew operates from an approved check list and SOP's - It's been a while but boeing it was "gear down, landing checks to the line or all the way" the flying pilot only confirmed the gear once.

Why would this gear issue happen in a multi-crew aircraft. Short answer, Human fact, that simple and I think we all agree on that. Not doing the proper checks is a result of the human factor issues. If the gear up landing was unintentional then the crew simply screwed up. Studying the human factor will help prevent it happening again but it's not an excuse for forgetting.

In my mind, as stated before - training and acting as a flying crew member is simply asking for an incident like this during airborne flight training. That's why jump seats are installed.

Moving on to single pilot reading a checklist is just not practical once you are in motion. You need to memorise check lists done when pilot work loads are high. Like going into a high density airport. You can't afford "heads down" or distraction, staying focused is paramount. Pilots operating at this level don't forget. A lot of times shit happens when a pilot is in that laid back and low work load or taking short cuts because it's fun, that's when stuff like gear ups happen.

We are all guilty of "letting our guard down" but it should never be during critical stages of flight. Rules won't always save your bacon, one must venture or be prepared to go "outside the box" from time to time. That's why there is warm, thinking bodies still in an aircraft and the argument against total automation. Yup there I go drifting back to commercial ops.

[pelmet]

With respect, the double-checking is not the issue. The issue is that the gear wasn't lowered at the right time. Putting the emphasis on the failure to double check something isn't correct.

Overall, I say double check the gear. TC says do it at least three times and I do frequently find myself doing it multiple times. But, at least once is what I would say is the absolute minimum.

Looks like the FAA agrees with me too.....

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/l ... ESSONS.pdf

"Make it a firm habit to double-check gear position on short final, while there's still plenty of time to go around..."

My prediction of silly responses to the TC recommendation turned out to be extremely accurate(and no surprise).

Examples.....

Is there any data to support three as the right number of times to check the gear? Who decided on three, and why?
If you check the gear twice, and it's definitely ok both times, do you still need to check it the third time?
If it's wrong at the first check, and then you fix it, are the next two checks still required?
If you miss the first two checks, and make the third, do you need to add two more checks so the total number of successful checks is three?
What if the first two checks show the gear is in the right place, but the third shows it's in the wrong place? What do you do then? Majority vote? or latest-takes-precedence?
If you do only two checks, but successfully land with the gear in the right place - is that ok, because you landed successfully? Or still a fail because you omitted a required safety check?

......Lets see if it continues.

[challenger_nami]

It's quite "airline" style, but that should suit some posters in this thread. I don't know if it's useful to the more "git-er-done" approach common in flying small airplanes. However there isn't anything there about running checklists two or three times, or double checking things on an ad-hoc basis.

Follow whatever method that suits your deepest of desires; just make a promise to yourself that you will not EVER land a perfectly good airplane on its belly. Period.


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