How valuable is soaring experience?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I'm just about done my PPL training, and I've joined back up with the soaring club where I first learned to fly.

My long term plan, which has obviously been modified by the pandemic, is to become a commercial bush pilot. I have no aspirations for an ATPL. As I peruse the various job ads, various minimum hours are presented. But what if, say, 50% of the hours I claim are in gliders?

I'm not looking to build hours in gliders as a cheap way to build hours - although to be fair, it is a cheap way to build hours. I want to soar again because I love it, because it's the closest thing to being a bird that any human will ever experience. But I would be remiss if I didn't stop and wonder how much or how little a benefit it would provide me. So to all the hiring managers here, how would it appear to you, if next year, I approached you with 300 total time, but 200 of it in gliders? Or 500 PIC, with 400 in gliders?

[Bede]

Gliding is cool but useless from an employment perspective. The decision making is completely different. Similar to private flying. A pilot with 1000 hrs flying commercially will have made far more consequential decisions than a guy who built his time privately and never had to deal with commercial pressures.

[Blakey]

Get yourself on the other end of the rope!

[lownslow]

I’ve never met a sailplane pilot who wasn’t passionate about flying (likewise for aerobatic pilots) so at least to me that shows a person cares and probably cares enough to want to be good at it. Will gliding more be a viable strategy to get noticed by an employer? Probably not, unless the person hiring is also into soaring. If you do get an interview and that interview is with a pilot I imagine your glider experience will make you more interesting there.

If soaring makes you happy, don’t stop. Just keep it as a more interesting hobby than golf or basket weaving and continue on with your work life.

[Blowin' In The Wind]

Going to have to agree. Gliding is a great pastime, but in relation to commercial operations it’ll mean very little. Like a previous poster said: find a way to get into the seat of the tow plane if you’re able. It’ll be a start!

[trey kule]

Perhaps I can share a different perspective.

In my career, I hired dozens if not hundreds of pilots.

Pilots like to look at hours because they are measurable. The hard truth is, for the most part, they are just check the box.
Companies, particularity large ones, are looking for a very specific attitude and personality that fits their company.

So….gliding hours are flight hours. Yes they count towards experience.
And more importantly ,in my experience , demonstrate a personality and attitude towards aviation that is a positive factor..

The idea that private experience vs. Commercial experience is a valid comparison, but it depends a lot on age, though in today’s climate we are never allowed to admit that.
A 20 year old who has never held a job in their life does need, IMO, to get some work experience. A 35 year old typically has it.
The downside, of course, if you are not in the commercial side where you are being trained and monitored regularly you can pick up some really bad habits.
I can recall some interesting issues with experienced glider pilots during training

Enjoy the soaring time. You will make far more decisions and know more about weather than most new CPLs.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Gliding is cool but useless from an employment perspective. The decision making is completely different. Similar to private flying. A pilot with 1000 hrs flying commercially will have made far more consequential decisions than a guy who built his time privately and never had to deal with commercial pressures.

I’ve never met a sailplane pilot who wasn’t passionate about flying (likewise for aerobatic pilots) so at least to me that shows a person cares and probably cares enough to want to be good at it. Will gliding more be a viable strategy to get noticed by an employer?

So, very much like me making hiring decisions in the IT business and hearing about a candidate's "completely awesome home lab". Sure, it demonstrates a passion for the work, but it's utterly useless as experience.

The downside, of course, if you are not in the commercial side where you are being trained and monitored regularly you can pick up some really bad habits.
I can recall some interesting issues with experienced glider pilots during training

I'd love to hear about those issues.

Enjoy the soaring time. You will make far more decisions and know more about weather than most new CPLs.

Good to know, and noted. Thanks.

[photofly]

I can recall some interesting issues with experienced glider pilots during training

Complete inability to maintain altitude ?

[JasonE]

Gliders are fun and will teach you good stick and rudder skills. The biggest issue I found was the attitude and dis-organization of the clubs. You are your own training guide I found....

[lownslow]

I can recall some interesting issues with experienced glider pilots during training

Complete inability to maintain altitude ?

Yeah but nailing airspeed like you’ve never seen before.

[co-joe]

Get yourself on the other end of the rope!

This.

Learning to glide is a way in, to driving the tow plane which is a good way to put PIC hours in your log book.

[ToolShed]

Get yourself on the other end of the rope!

BUT be PAID for your services!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Get yourself on the other end of the rope!

BUT be PAID for your services!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck with that. Essentially all soaring clubs are run entirely by volunteer members. Nobody gets paid, and even then, most struggle to stay aloft (pun intended).

On the other hand, many clubs, including York Soaring and the Toronto Soaring Club in my neck of the woods, offer free instruction after membership and towing.

[linecrew]

I know you're past this point already but I found it helped me during my PPL training in that I was never phased by engine failure PFLs. Every glider flight is basically an engine failure.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Every glider flight is basically an engine failure.

Except, of course, you don't then have the dead weight of an inoperative engine pulling you down. I can count on one hand the number of thermals I've encountered that can overcome the best glide sink rate of a 172.

[photofly]

You need to fly in more convective weather then

[rookiepilot]

You need to fly in more convective weather then

Green, yellow, and red don't just apply to traffic lights...applies to NEXRAD as well.

[‘Bob’]

You don’t need moisture to have strong thermals. They won’t even show up on nextrad or weather radar.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

You don’t need moisture to have strong thermals. They won’t even show up on nextrad or weather radar.

They don't show up on any radar I'm aware of, not even six figure birds with gliding computers. I gotta say, I flew gliders again a couple of days ago, and wow, to "feel" a thermal... it was... euphoric. And we were 10 or 20lbs overgross on the flight I'm thinking of - not fun on an aerotow, but wow, what a learning experience.

Some moisture sure helps to find those thermals, though.

[AirFrame]

Get yourself on the other end of the rope!

BUT be PAID for your services!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I object. As a private pilot who had no aspirations to commercial, flying the tow-plane was an experience that wouldn't have been open to me if it was a paid position. I learned a few things doing it, and got to fly another aircraft type that I likely wouldn't have had the opportunity to otherwise (L-19).

[Arnie Pye]

Gliding is cool but useless from an employment perspective. The decision making is completely different. Similar to private flying. A pilot with 1000 hrs flying commercially will have made far more consequential decisions than a guy who built his time privately and never had to deal with commercial pressures.

Many years ago (probably 15-20 years ago now) I saw a documentary about how modern air crew were losing their hands and feet abilities. I think it was Air France that was studying ways to build this skill back up in their pilot group. The most effective method that they found was training pilots on gliders. Ultimately, I think they decided to do upset training in a Lear as an alternative.

I would also argue that it builds decision making and general airmanship. It's in a very intangible zone of marketable skills. Probably won't help you get a job but these skills are useful to some extent.

It comes down to this: if you love it, do it. It's definitely not going to break the bank and it will build some decision making and basic skills.

[linecrew]

Every glider flight is basically an engine failure.

Except, of course, you don't then have the dead weight of an inoperative engine pulling you down. I can count on one hand the number of thermals I've encountered that can overcome the best glide sink rate of a 172.

What I meant that during a glider flight you need to eventually land dead stick and be properly set up to do so at the originating airport, not the bit where you can stay fluttering around in the sky for endless hours thermalling.

[‘Bob’]

Unfortunately, it’s like a lot of things.

Soaring forces you to make decisions which you could easily make in a powered aircraft.

It’s like tail wheel flying forces you to use the hands and feet that you can easily use in a nose wheel airplane.

Or commercial flying forcing you to make the decision making that you could easily apply to private flying.

If the type of flying or the type of aircraft is forcing you to do these things, there will always be those who make it through sloppily on pure luck.

And I’ve had experiences with this. People who got hired because they had a wide range of experiences that you’d think would have made them have very good hands and feet and decision making skills....... .......but didn’t. Like not upgradable, not getting out of probation, moving on to better things, didn’t.

Because ultimately a lot of the same factors are in those types of flying as well. Glider pilots not only have to fly on sunny days..... .... but the right kind of sunny days. Soaring clubs need members to survive, so the quality of pilots produced is every bit as varied as an FTU. Perhaps even more so with little to no oversight. Commercial operations lowered requirements during the shortage because they needed people to fill seats.

Bottom line. No experience is valueless. Having soaring on your resume might tickle the heart strings of a fellow glider pilot or Air Cadet or it might evoke a raised eyebrow and an “interesting” at an interview. But it doesn’t replace or even necessarily enhance the required experience.

[ToolShed]

Get yourself on the other end of the rope!

BUT be PAID for your services!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I object. As a private pilot who had no aspirations to commercial, flying the tow-plane was an experience that wouldn't have been open to me if it was a paid position. I learned a few things doing it, and got to fly another aircraft type that I likely wouldn't have had the opportunity to otherwise (L-19).

Private means you can't get paid....but if you're building hours for a future FLYING job....please get paid for your work and help our industry's youth.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

You won't get paid for towing gliders - not anywhere that I'm aware of, anyway. As I stated earlier in this thread, most soaring clubs struggle to survive. They don't pay their instructors, let alone their tow pilots. If they did, they would fail to attract new members, because it would drive the cost of membership too high - and they would fail. You just can't get blood from a stone.

It will never be regular work anyway, so it's very difficult to get anyone to commit to an hourly or per parcel pay rate for it - especially when you consider that they need to be available on good sunny days. Even were I paid for it, it's just too "feast or famine" to count on it. So if you're expecting tow pilots to be paid, you're in for a world of hurt; it's just not feasible.

That said, I didn't want this thread to turn into a debate on whether or not tug pilots should be paid. I was hoping to spark a discussion on the value of soaring as experience, measurable and countable or otherwise. I can tell you, my rudder feet are definitely coming back. Planning a circuit when there's three other gliders positioning for the downwind with no radio is quite something. Needing to keep a constant lookout, just in case you hit lift and need to circle, is quite something - that really wakes up your eyes and reduces your reliance on maintaining a listening watch.

And beyond all that, what I've really missed, I found, is just spending the day at a grass airfield on a sunny day, driving golf carts and making sure tow cards are filled out. There's a hustle and bustle at soaring clubs (at least at mine) that you won't find at most airfields. Today I flew with a retired AC 747 instructor and check pilot... it's... quite something.

And every pilot should try soaring, at least once.