US Airspace question

[charrois]

Hi everyone.

Surrounding the larger airports here in Canada, class C airspace typically goes from its base up to 12,500', whereupon class B airspace takes over from 12,500' - 18000' (usually covering a larger area), and then class A above that. So at such an airport, airspace is typically controlled (either Class C, B, or A) and requiring a clearance to operate in from the ground up to 60,000', and that makes sense.

From what I understand of US airspace, however, it doesn't seem to work quite this way. For example, Chicago's airspace (class B) runs from the ground to 10,000'. From 18,000' and up, it's class A. Am I missing something, or is the area in between just class E where VFR aircraft don't need to be in contact with anyone? If so, what's to provide separation between the larger aircraft transitioning between 10,000'-18,000' and VFR aircraft just passing through?

[photofly]

If so, what's to provide separation between the larger aircraft transitioning between 10,000'-18,000' and VFR aircraft just passing through?

Pilots looking out of the windows.

ATC passes advisories to the IFR traffic, and it all works quite well. It’s only in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Canada that everyone has to be told what to do.

[CpnCrunch]

If so, what's to provide separation between the larger aircraft transitioning between 10,000'-18,000' and VFR aircraft just passing through?

Pilots looking out of the windows.

ATC passes advisories to the IFR traffic, and it all works quite well. It’s only in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Canada that everyone has to be told what to do.

Actually, the correct answer is TCAS. All aircraft above the 10,000ft class B must have a mode C transponder according to FAR 91.215 (b) (4). I think even Murica doesn't entirely trust their pilots to use common sense.

[charrois]

Pilots looking out windows should always be the first line of defence, I agree.

But if I'm toodling along at 10,500' not talking to anyone and there is a big jet behind me descending through my altitude and coming in to land somewhere, I'm not going to see him or even be talking to someone to know he's there. Is ATC really going to be vectoring the 747 around me? I might have a mode C transponder, but I don't necessarily have to have TCAS (or even ADS-B In) myself.

I personally appreciate the help of ATC to help me avoid traffic, and as such usually try and get flight following anyway, so a scenario like that is less likely in such a case. Coming from the background of being used to how it works here, it just strikes me as odd that they'd have to vector IFR (and usually larger) traffic around the VFR guys who aren't in communication with anyone.

[CpnCrunch]

I might have a mode C transponder, but I don't necessarily have to have TCAS (or even ADS-B In) myself.

No you don't need TCAS, but the jet will definitely have it.

For two bugsmashers you would have to use your eyes (or, ADS-B these days).

[Cavalier44]

Pilots looking out windows should always be the first line of defence, I agree.

But if I'm toodling along at 10,500' not talking to anyone and there is a big jet behind me descending through my altitude and coming in to land somewhere, I'm not going to see him or even be talking to someone to know he's there. Is ATC really going to be vectoring the 747 around me? I might have a mode C transponder, but I don't necessarily have to have TCAS (or even ADS-B In) myself.

I personally appreciate the help of ATC to help me avoid traffic, and as such usually try and get flight following anyway, so a scenario like that is less likely in such a case. Coming from the background of being used to how it works here, it just strikes me as odd that they'd have to vector IFR (and usually larger) traffic around the VFR guys who aren't in communication with anyone.

If you're in the United States and you're flying at 10,500 feet, you're more than likely ADS-B Out equipped and probably TCAS equipped as well. See the following FAA requirements:

Under the rule, ADS-B Out performance is required to operate in:

Class A, B, and C airspace.
Class E airspace within the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.
Class E airspace at and above 3,000 feet MSL over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles.
Within 30 nautical miles of those airports identified in 14 CFR part 91, Appendix D. Otherwise known as the Mode C veil.

And yes, if you're coming in IFR, ATC will vector you around VFR traffic as required. If you fly into the New York area on a nice sunny VFR day, you will likely get to experience this, especially in the vicinity of White Plains/Long Island/Teterboro.

It may seem odd but that's the way they choose to do it.

[charrois]

If you fly into the New York area on a nice sunny VFR day, you will likely get to experience this, especially in the vicinity of White Plains/Long Island/Teterboro.

Funny you should mention that - the reason I ask is I'm planning on a flight across the country to Teterboro. I'll likely be coming in below the Class B there so the situation I mentioned won't apply there, but I was thinking of going over Chicago to get around the lake, and that's where I ran into the question.

From the regs you mentioned, considering it would be class E above 10,000', ADS-B out is required, so at least ATC should know about everyone who is there even if they aren't talking to them. At least that's something!

Dan

[photofly]

Is ATC really going to be vectoring the 747 around me?

Yes. In practice the 747 will have a stop climb, or stop descent until you’re clear. Or maybe a vector. Nobody wants a collision.

You will get a point-out, if you are receiving a RADAR service. Many times, VFR, I have had “traffic is a 737 (or whatever) 500 above, crossing right to left, 1 mile.” Or similar.

[Beefitarian]

Why would you just be touring at 10,500 over Chicago? I would probably be using flight following down there. It seems kind of normal, then you get traffic advisories.

What’s up with ADS-B, doesn’t nearly every plane need it in the US now?

[photofly]

Why would you just be touring at 10,500 over Chicago? I would probably be using flight following down there. It seems kind of normal, then you get traffic advisories.

What’s up with ADS-B, doesn’t nearly every plane need it in the US now?

If you were touring over Chicago, you’d probably be doing it at 10,500 and receiving a RADAR service, with your (mandatory) ADSB working. These are not mutually exclusive.

[CpnCrunch]

Why would you just be touring at 10,500 over Chicago? I would probably be using flight following down there. It seems kind of normal, then you get traffic advisories.

What’s up with ADS-B, doesn’t nearly every plane need it in the US now?

If you were touring over Chicago, you’d probably be doing it at 10,500 and receiving a RADAR service, with your (mandatory) ADSB working. These are not mutually exclusive.

ADS-B isn't required in class E or G airspace. (EDIT: yes it is.)

[photofly]

Above 10,000 MSL in class E it is.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

If so, what's to provide separation between the larger aircraft transitioning between 10,000'-18,000' and VFR aircraft just passing through?

Pilots looking out of the windows.

ATC passes advisories to the IFR traffic, and it all works quite well. It’s only in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Canada that everyone has to be told what to do.

Actually, the correct answer is TCAS. All aircraft above the 10,000ft class B must have a mode C transponder according to FAR 91.215 (b) (4). I think even Murica doesn't entirely trust their pilots to use common sense.

Their have more traffic than Canada... and they also have Harrison Ford.

[vov4ik_il]

The higher traffic will hear something like "NXYZ (or United flight 1234), -Traffic 11 o'clock, type unknown, 10500, I'm not talking to him"
and then "NXYZ, For traffic, descend and maintain 12000" or "NXYZ, For traffic, turn 15 degrees right (or left)"

ADS-B is required in E above 10. You are not even required to file a flight plan over 25nm away zipping VFR (which might still be a good idea) as long as you keep it below FL180 and not crossing or getting close to any borders. In most cases (if not busy) they will let you in Bravo VFR, just make sure you have the terminal area chart.

P.S. You might want to get familiar with NYC SFRA

[Conquest Driver]

In theory you can go bombing around above Class B and below 18,000 ft without talking to ATC. In practice this is a really bad idea. "Request VFR Flight Following" is a the way to go. Once you accept VFR Flight following you are required to comply with any ATC instructions. Usually it all works really well.

[rookiepilot]

Ask for a clearance down the Hudson. (VFR FF). At 1200 feet would be normal if you get it.
White plains is MUCH cheaper for GA btw.