Competing Union

[Arnie Pye]

Isn't most of the steering committee made up of people that were effectively voted out when ALPA came along in the first place? They were fired once for failing to represent the pilots. What's going to be different this time around?

[countdown]

If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.

[Airbrake]

My prediction is WestJet pilots will repeat the FedEx lost decade, but only do it better, and make it 15 years.

[lostaviator]

My prediction is WestJet pilots will repeat the FedEx lost decade, but only do it better, and make it 15 years.

You’re assuming the company lasts 15 years. Hope is quickly fading on this side of the keyboard…. Let’s fire all the staff because travel demand will never come back! I’ve heard more and more people are deciding to drive across the country because it’s quicker than 18 hours on hold.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

My prediction is WestJet pilots will repeat the FedEx lost decade, but only do it better, and make it 15 years.

You’re assuming the company lasts 15 years. Hope is quickly fading on this side of the keyboard…. Let’s fire all the staff because travel demand will never come back! I’ve heard more and more people are deciding to drive across the country because it’s quicker than 18 hours on hold.

You're a pessimistic one, eh?

[lostaviator]

My prediction is WestJet pilots will repeat the FedEx lost decade, but only do it better, and make it 15 years.

You’re assuming the company lasts 15 years. Hope is quickly fading on this side of the keyboard…. Let’s fire all the staff because travel demand will never come back! I’ve heard more and more people are deciding to drive across the country because it’s quicker than 18 hours on hold.

You're a pessimistic one, eh?

Normally, no. I actually have a very positive outlook on the short-medium term outlook for the industry and our profession. Long term not so much: Environmental regulations. Single pilot ops. Loosening of foreign carrier restrictions (it’s in all the main parties policy books).

I just think WJ is in for a rough few years. How long has every other 2nd largest carrier lasted in Canada?

We are privately owned. Let’s not kid ourselves. Investors (myself included) only care about the performance of the company while they own it. Labour unrest. Revolving doors on top management offices. Product/brand differentiation doesn’t exist anymore… what owners? There’s no one left!

I’d love for the company to last forever. I just don’t feel great about that being the case. I hope I’m wrong.

[Airbrake]

I certainly believe the next years could be rough.
This could assist in softening some of the hits though. Time will tell if the company or our own pilots are our worst enemy though.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2021 ... -serve-can

[FL410AV8R]

If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.

I have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.

The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?

[fish4life]

Another issue within itself when it comes to “voting the reps” is Just the pure lack of engagement. Nobody’s fault but our own. Sideline chat groups with no real information or lobbying to the “whole group”. It’s a joke. Then we get the reps we deserve. Far away base rep guys boasting about using all their sick days and not having to commute and now in status positions due to a chat group and low voter turnout. If the rumblings are true about the new mec chair… speechless.

If sick days don’t get paid out you would be handing the company money by not using all of them, why wouldn’t you use all your sick time?

[digits_]

If sick days don’t get paid out you would be handing the company money by not using all of them, why wouldn’t you use all your sick time?

Sick days aren't money. Sick days are available for when you are sick. If everybody would use all their sick days, I'm pretty sure next time everyone would get less.

If you get, random number, 10 sick days, the expectation is probably that the average pilot will use 4 or 5. It's a social construct in which you can tap in if you need it. It's not vacation.

[Bede]

If sick days don’t get paid out you would be handing the company money by not using all of them, why wouldn’t you use all your sick time?

Because:
1) it’s unethical to report sick when you are not.
2) it undermines the trust based sick and fatigue policies.
3) it leads to management harassing genuinely sick people because they’re trying to weed out who’s sick and who’s not.
4) you can be terminated with cause for time sheet fraud.

[tailgunner]

Time to put on your big boy pants Bede.
How do you define “fit to fly”, as it states in the CARS?
You seemed concerned about facing company harassment. If someone asks you about your health and ability to work on a certain day, respond with “ I was not fit to fly”. There you go, problem solved. If they keep pressing, they are out of bounds, and could face severe penalties from TC and the Labour Board. They are not permitted to ask personal health questions. They are not permitted to pressure you to work, when you have self- assessed.
We, as pilots, need o grow a stiffer backbone. It is manifested in this irrational fear, at the WJ and AC level, of pilots that are afraid to make a stand and are afraid of their own shadow.
Fit to fly is an enormous blanket. It does not mean that you need to have the sniffles or the shits. It also encompasses ones mental and emotional states. I certainly do not want to fly with a comrade that is mentally not in the game because of outside emotional pressures. So, do not worry about your corporate sick day usage policies. They are not written for Pilots, but for every other employee. We are governed by the CARS.
Cheers

[digits_]

Time to put on your big boy pants Bede.
How do you define “fit to fly”, as it states in the CARS?
You seemed concerned about facing company harassment. If someone asks you about your health and ability to work on a certain day, respond with “ I was not fit to fly”. There you go, problem solved. If they keep pressing, they are out of bounds, and could face severe penalties from TC and the Labour Board. They are not permitted to ask personal health questions. They are not permitted to pressure you to work, when you have self- assessed.
We, as pilots, need o grow a stiffer backbone. It is manifested in this irrational fear, at the WJ and AC level, of pilots that are afraid to make a stand and are afraid of their own shadow.
Fit to fly is an enormous blanket. It does not mean that you need to have the sniffles or the shits. It also encompasses ones mental and emotional states. I certainly do not want to fly with a comrade that is mentally not in the game because of outside emotional pressures. So, do not worry about your corporate sick day usage policies. They are not written for Pilots, but for every other employee. We are governed by the CARS.
Cheers

How is that relevant for the sick day discussion. Are you just going to call in unfit to fly because you happen to have some sick days left?

[Bede]

Time to put on your big boy pants Bede.
How do you define “fit to fly”, as it states in the CARS?
You seemed concerned about facing company harassment. If someone asks you about your health and ability to work on a certain day, respond with “ I was not fit to fly”. There you go, problem solved. If they keep pressing, they are out of bounds, and could face severe penalties from TC and the Labour Board. They are not permitted to ask personal health questions. They are not permitted to pressure you to work, when you have self- assessed.
We, as pilots, need o grow a stiffer backbone. It is manifested in this irrational fear, at the WJ and AC level, of pilots that are afraid to make a stand and are afraid of their own shadow.
Fit to fly is an enormous blanket. It does not mean that you need to have the sniffles or the shits. It also encompasses ones mental and emotional states. I certainly do not want to fly with a comrade that is mentally not in the game because of outside emotional pressures. So, do not worry about your corporate sick day usage policies. They are not written for Pilots, but for every other employee. We are governed by the CARS.
Cheers

I define fit to fly the same way you do. The difference is that the previous poster advocated using all his sick days which implied that he was willing to call in "sick" when not physically or emotionally not fit to fly. I call in sick because I'm not fit to fly, not because I'm concerned about the company possibly saving money because I didn't use all my sick days.

[tailgunner]

If you deem yourself as not fit to fly, then indeed book off.
Some years there may be days left , some years not. The thought process, and self assessment should not consider any sick day use company policy. I feel that too often the fear of breaking company policy holds too much sway.
Cheers

[tailgunner]

Bede,
I feel we are mostly on the same page. I feel that if a fellow pilot is using all of her sick days as a strategy, then, by definition and reason, maybe they should stay home. I’ve flown, as you have I’m sure, with the angry bitter person. It’s usually around contract negotiation time and the operation is way smoother if they stay home. It doesn’t bother me that they use this strategy, just show up in the right frame of mind.
Cheers

[ALPApolicy]

Re: sick policy abuse. A unionized ICBC employee found out the hard way in April 2021 that calling in sick when not sick is a terminating offense:

[Dionysus]

If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.

I have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.

The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?

Ever hear of book smart vs street smart? Lol not my cup of tea. Wrong guy.

[Dionysus]

Re: sick policy abuse. A unionized ICBC employee found out the hard way in April 2021 that calling in sick when not sick is a terminating offense:

It’s only one word if you aren’t sick. It’s fraudulent

[countdown]

If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.

I have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.

The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?

The reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.

The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".

[FL410AV8R]

If SW is the new MEC I will no choice but to support the other guys. SW is toxic and the company will not work with him, his past proves it. If this is the choice of the LEC they are completely out to lunch. WJ pilots should expect another garbage arbitrated agreement.

I have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.

The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?

The reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.

The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".

You do realize that you contradicted yourself in your own post, right?

The pilot group did attempt to certify in-house prior to ALPA, it was called the WPPA and was actively campaigned against by the same individuals referred to as the old guard WJPA in my previous post with help from the company and their hired guns and of course Labourwatch. The fact that these same individuals are now promoting certifying an in-house union is so beyond hypocritical that it borders on the ludicrous.

Don't let your version of revisionist history get in the way of the facts though, that would be inconvenient.

[countdown]

I have read a lot of BS here on AvCanada but this really takes the biscuit. This slander and character assassination has been perpetuated by some from the old guard WJPA for over a decade now and frankly, it is disturbing that so many continue to regurgitate it.

The reality is that the individual you mention was actually the first pilot representative in our history to stand up and publicly disagree with and call BS on what was going on at the company, of course, the company didn't like dealing with him. The problem was at the time the Kool-Aid was still particularly strong within the pilot group and when support from the group was required we chickened out and sided with the company, that is not the case anymore. How has the "let's be friends" approach worked out for our pilots recently?

The reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.

The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".

You do realize that you contradicted yourself in your own post, right?

The pilot group did attempt to certify in-house prior to ALPA, it was called the WPPA and was actively campaigned against by the same individuals referred to as the old guard WJPA in my previous post with help from the company and their hired guns and of course Labourwatch. The fact that these same individuals are now promoting certifying an in-house union is so beyond hypocritical that it borders on the ludicrous.

Don't let your version of revisionist history get in the way of the facts though, that would be inconvenient.

The WPPA was a group of individuals with a huge chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind, they were not even remotely a viable option. Their only focus was putting the screws to CB.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

.

[FL410AV8R]

The reality is that many of the "old guard WJPA" were former MEC and LEC reps at their former ALPA shops. They know how dysfunctional a third party wedge is. The real shame here is that the pilot group didn't pursue certifying in house prior to ALPA.

The "lets not let the pilot group vote on their future" certainly didn't work out for 415 pilots. But hey, now we can just recall the MEC and install one of the "old guard WPPA".

You do realize that you contradicted yourself in your own post, right?

The pilot group did attempt to certify in-house prior to ALPA, it was called the WPPA and was actively campaigned against by the same individuals referred to as the old guard WJPA in my previous post with help from the company and their hired guns and of course Labourwatch. The fact that these same individuals are now promoting certifying an in-house union is so beyond hypocritical that it borders on the ludicrous.

Don't let your version of revisionist history get in the way of the facts though, that would be inconvenient.

The WPPA was a group of individuals with a huge chip on their shoulder and an axe to grind, they were not even remotely a viable option. Their only focus was putting the screws to CB.

If that is what you truly believe was the aims and goals of the WPPA were you couldn't be more mistaken or ill-informed and revisionist history is the least of your problems.

[Dionysus]

Well rightplacewrongtime will have his theory tested lol with the newly elected mec DK, SW and BL. Personally I have time for BL but that’s about it. The other two must have fell off that train with the giraffe as this will be a test of egos. Anyone see the official communication yet? I haven’t. Only heard second and third and forth hand. What was I saying about our communication? Ahhh never mind. We have AV Canada for official ALPA coms.