Contemplating Jazz

Captain Esq. · Post by **Captain Esq.** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:20 pm

Prologue: I'm a co-pilot on a Lear 35, & I'm currently next in line to go Captain. I've accrued almost 600 hours in said position, and we fly about 500 hours a year. My total time is about 3500, the majority of which is PIC on a Navajo and other singles. My current job pays me very well, and I'm not itching to leave, though I'm constantly trying to make the right decisions in regards to developing my career in a manner that is most suitable to fulfilling my goals.

My Goal: To create a comfortable & enjoyable lifestyle for my family and I by flying heavy aircraft for a stable company, either in Canada or abroad. (AC, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, etc.)

My question: Staring down the barrel of a Captain position on the old, steam driven Lear, would I be getting myself closer to my goals by flying a Dash 8 at Jazz with no potential of Captain for many years, and almost half the money of my current job? Or am I being realistic when I say that I think I can go straight from a Learjet to a Boeing or an Airbus? Based on the current and forseeable job market, would I be making the right decision by not going to Jazz, staying where I'm at & waiting for a bigger gig to call while continuing to build jet time at a good company? Serious advice only please, and thank you soooo much for even entertaining my situation.

Captain Esquire

NAYA · Post by **NAYA** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:39 pm

I'd stay with there Multi engine jet rather than the long line for PIC at Jazz and only multi engine prop. No question for me.

SplitS · Post by **SplitS** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:42 pm

Dont expect you'll draw much symphathy on this forum... Personally, I have a little bit more time than you, I am captain king air and if I were in your shoes I wouldnt budge. PIC jet will open a lot of doors, more so than Dash 8 copilot time - for your goals anyways. Of course everyone I know who's gone to jazz is going on the jet. Still, PIC is better than SIC.

KIAS · Post by **KIAS** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:45 pm

No doubt in my mind, stay there ! You like your job, get to log jet time and are next in line to go captain. I think staying there until you have a decent amount of Jet-PIC will allow you to bypass the commuters and get on with the majors directly, even more so if you're willing to go overseas.

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:48 pm

I'd say go to Jazz if you can afford the pay cut now. Or wait for AC to call. IMHO, light, steam driven jet ain't what it might have been at one time.

182driver · Post by **182driver** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:01 pm

I certainly feel your pain mon ami as we are alike as two peas in a pod, you and me.

Me, I also yearn for the days when I can listen to heavy metal in the cockpit of some big metal. Cruising the skies with my Ipod earphones jammed home, RATT blaring away as I spin dials, flick switches and yammer on the radio--now that is a life I can get used to!

Just think of the layovers though: Sault Ste. Marie one night, Timmins the next, followed by international encounters with the local lusties in Columbus! It is a rockstar-like dream chaps, and it is within reach.

My dilemma, like yours, is the mighty PIC.

Just like your little jet, 182 Captain time doesn't come easy, and I earn my pesos as I wrestle my steed home, mission after harrowing mission. I think my Jazz interview went okay, although unfortunately I had to crank one off midway due to overindulging in some beans the night before. That wasn't too cool, although in light of my outstanding quals I'm sure they'll let it slide.

Good luck in whatever you decide, and hey, maybe I'll see you in groundschool! Here's a hint: I'll be the one in the back with the cool-guy shades on, toothpick dangling from mouth, ciggy behind ear answering all the tough questions.

Henri

. . · Post by **. .** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:16 pm

well I think half the guys going to jazz are getting the RJ now, so i wouldn't discount it just because of the dash-8.

in my opinion

Jazz Pros:

- travel passes after 6 months (oh god yes)
- nice schedule
- a company recognized beyond canada
- a company you can retire from
- could work at many different bases depending on where you want to work
- union to protect your ass if something hits the fan
- amazing in house training, and SOPs
- lifestyle (you know your schedule, you know your pairings, you know your days off)
- the ability to bid pairings that you like as you become more senior

Jazz Cons:

- crap pay to start (you mentioned half what you currently make)
- the possibility that your initial base isn't where you want to be
- long wait for PIC time (though that should be getting slightly better)
- larger company, so you're just a number (should this be in the pro section?)

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:35 pm

Holy Sh!t!! You managed to lure Henri out into the open to add his $.02 worth.
FWIW, I'd stay where you are. If you want to work for Jazz, then go; if you want to work for Cathay, then go there. Don't use Jazz as a stepping stone to (percieved) better places. Jet pic is better than prop SIC, IMHO

B612 · Post by **B612** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:55 pm

Jazz for sure. Going overseas is much easier from a Dash or RJ in an airline environment than it is from the Lear, as fun as the Lear is. Most Jazz newhires are straight to the RJ, and RJ f/o beats Lear skipper any day. Don't downplay Jazz or overestimate the Lear. Holding out for AC is a gamble, and if you lose Jazz is your next best bet in Canada.

CLguy · Post by **CLguy** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:26 pm

Captain Esq, if you are looking at Cathay I wouldn't pay to much attention to whether you have PIC time or 2IC time. If you are lucky enough to get an interview and you are who they are looking for you will get the offer regardless of whether you have Lear time or Dash-8 time.

I have a good friend who got hired direct to the 747-400 in Hong Kong from a right seat Navajo job in Big Trout Lake. The first commercial aircraft he was ever PIC on was an A-340 and he is 35 years old.

Don't beat yourself up to badly while making your decision. If it is meant to happen it will so don't sell your soul for less money to try and make it happen. I have a lot of friends working at Jazz and they aren't to happy these days. My crystal ball says stay put!!!

Captain Esq. · Post by **Captain Esq.** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:16 pm

The diversity of the responses that I'm getting here represents whats going on in my head PERFECTLY! There are so many pro's & con's to each one. My feeling is that the guys going to Jazz are going to have a difficult time getting on at mainline, as it sounds like many of the Jazz guys getting interviewed aren't getting on. Additionally, though there is a chance of getting the RJ, not everyone is getting it. And I'd have to gamble with the loss of my job as to whether or not I got on that, anyways. And as far as those passes go, they can't be used as bait, cause I wouldn't be able to afford to go anywhere! But hey, I'm still gathering info, and I really appreciate the responses. Though I must admit, if there's even a small chance that I could end up in the same groundschool, or even the same airplane as 182Driver, it would be worth going to Jazz.

Captain Esq.

metal overcast · Post by **metal overcast** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:44 pm

planett · Post by **planett** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:50 pm

Don't concern yourself with RJ vs DHC-8, I would consider pay, advancement, lifestyle to be prime consideration if applying to Jazz, not AC type, unless type impacts those facors above. Come to think of it, those considerations would cause me to stay put. Just think of the cumulative loss of income over all the years at Jazz before reaching your present level, then consider what your present level will be if you get the upgrade. Only a bad work environment or terrible schedule would make me leave.

planett · Post by **planett** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:54 pm

Also, travelling on passes is more hassle than it's worth, are you willing to be bumped two days in a row to go anywhere?

. . · Post by **. .** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:56 pm

I don't think it's a hassle if you pick the right flights. If you check loads and make sure there's plenty of space available you should be alright. You may not end up in your #1 destination but it will be a cheap flight.

planett · Post by **planett** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:21 pm

Okay. point conceded, if destination is not important then travelling on passes is not a hassle.

cjet · Post by **cjet** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:56 pm

Esq think about this. With 1000hrs Corporate Jet Comand you can go to Cathay as a direct entry FO with a North American Base. If thats what you want.

fanspeed · Post by **fanspeed** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:19 pm

How long will it take you to get that time tho? You could have a couple of good years of pay as an RP, then bid over to the cargo side and do the same thing anyway...............just a thought

Captain Esq. · Post by **Captain Esq.** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:34 pm

cjet, I've thought about that exact same thing. I would do exactly as fanspeed suggested, but Cathay ain't calling right now. In the meantime, there's also SkyService, Westjet, and potentially Harmony to think about. I'm just hoping that I can get to one of those from a Lear. And I see no reason why I couldn't. I look at this whole new rush of hiring like surfing. You can grab the first decent wave that comes in, but that means that there's a good chance you'll miss the whole set of way bigger ones that follow it. I'm just gonna wait and see what transpires.

Captain Esquire

A330 · Post by **A330** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:08 pm

My .035 cents worth,

It all depends where you see yourself. Set a goal and drive towards it. If it's right to AC mainline, then stay where you are and do the left seat and wait while gaining great experience. If it's CX, then get your info in there ASAP and wait patiently. You could also reapply as a freighter FO after a couple years in the left seat. Main thing is that your in a strong position with the PIC jet around the corner. The Charters and WJ are good options but long term I would still recommend AC and the likes of CX and EK.

leftcoaster · Post by **leftcoaster** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:33 am

If you want to fly heavies don't come to Jazz. It's a crappy stepping stone.
It is, in my opinion, a pretty good job.
I'm hoping the suits running this place don't screw the pooch. Many of us here consider it a "Career job"
BTW I'd take the jet PIC over SIC. The RJ is only 53,000 lbs anyway.
Good luck

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:29 am

Stay there, get your 1000 jet PIC, then Cathay freighter.
Apply & update often. Wherever you end up, enjoy the Journey.
Cheers!

basler · Post by **basler** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 6:37 am

Captain Esq.
If your actually going to make a career decision on the hearsay information you get here...give your head a shake!

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:57 am

Captain Esq.

If you read your initial post carefully, I think you will find that you have already answered your question.

Aviation is full of hard-decision crossroads, many of which lead nowhere although the choice of direction seems good at the time.
After 40 years in aviation, I find I have been in more than a dozen jobs, when all I really wanted was one.
In general aviation, you may well find that change of management destroys what had been a tranquil and satisfying relationship. You have no control over that. It seems to me, from what you say, that the perennial "gypsy" in pilots has not yet caused you to determine if the grass is truly greener over the hill. Beware that thought.
It is better to be a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a small pond.
Unilateral (and maybe vindictive ) decisions by "the Boss' is not possible if you have a union to protect you in a professional fashion, with a hammer.
Strong sops back you as opposed to wind-cock decisions by unreliable and often unqualified management.
You will also be defended against the sometimes erratic, erroneous and stupid decisions by Transport Canada. (A contemporary of mine retired from an airline a couple of years ago and said he never ever read the CARS.)

AIDS (aviation-induced divorce syndrome) is largely generated by a pilot's obsession with aviation at the expense of family. As you grow older, quality of life will become more important to you as opposed to what you are flying and how much you are making.

So, when you speak of "quality of life for my family", are you putting their needs ahead of your aviation addiction?

When you make your decision, you and your wife co-author a sheet of paper on which you write down the reasons for plotting the course you are going to take. Down the years, when dissatisfaction, doubt and twenty-twenty hindsight kick in, pull out the sheet and read it again.
There is no such thing as the perfect job in aviation, but a tolerable lifestyle and family solidarity is all we can maybe hope for.

Hope this helps.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:35 am

Snaproll :

Great post...but this bothers me..

" (A contemporary of mine retired from an airline a couple of years ago and said he never ever read the CARS.) "

A few months ago I was getting some training on a 76 ER and while being coached on how to enter the data in the FMS by the check captain I had my copy of CAR's on my lap to refeer to for guidance ....that was the first time that he had ever seen CAR's as we were flying under Eurocontrol...

The training guy was so impressed with the value of CAR's that when I last saw him walking away from the airplane I wondered why he was leaning in the direction of his flight bag...I couldn't find my CAR's anywhere in the cockpit, so I guess he stole them..

Canada should be proud of the innovative people that we have in TC.

Cat