3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Covid related topics that are connected to travel or the aviation industry.
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

blasted off wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:58 pm https://www.expatica.com/pt/news/lisbon ... id-100196/
Lisbon court rules only 0.9% of ‘verified cases’ actually died of Covid
Published on June 28, 2021
Following a citizen’s petition, a Lisbon court was forced to provide verified Covid-19 mortality data. According to the ruling, the number of verified Covid-19 deaths from January 2020 to April 2021 is only 152, not the 17,000 as claimed by government ministries.

All the “others” died for various reasons, although their PCR test was positive.
The summary provided links to a Portuguese court ruling, in Portuguese. The other links are either dead or point to other summaries, and somehow I doubt you speak Portuguese (Russian, perhaps, but not I think Portuguese.)

If this is "evidence" to you, you have no idea what evidence is. You are either looking for whatever confirms your already established opinion, or deliberately sowing discord.

The idea that there are people who think this is credible and notable evidence does not bode well for humanity. In the interest of transparency, however, I will provide an (unverified) translation:
Someone on the Internet wrote: A group of citizens made available online the judgment of the Administrative Court of the Circle of Lisbon, of 19-5-2021 , on the process aimed at providing information by the Directorate-General for Health (DGS) and Ministry of Health (MS) of the number of deaths by Covid-19 autopsied and measured by PCR testing since the beginning of the pandemic and scientific studies on which this entity relied to impose measures and make recommendations.

The DGS invoked the applicants' illegitimacy to deny them the information, but during the process it was forced to grant it.

However, virtually all requests were left unanswered (15 out of 17) relating to scientific evidence of the measures of peer-reviewed studies, allegedly because "none of the documents, reports, evidence and information requested (...) are in possession of the DGS” , can be read on the first page of the sentence.

Briefly, unanswered requests for alleged lack of documents in the possession of DGS have to do with: mapping of the genetic code and infection of SARS-Cov-2, RT-PCR test as a means of diagnosis and amplification cycles, transmission of infection by asymptomatic, distinction from the common flu, confinement, social distance, masks and vaccines.

The answered requests, allegedly the only ones in the possession of DGS, were only items l) in), respectively, “Information/report on the number of deaths in Portugal, since the beginning of the declared pandemic, caused by SARS-Cov2 infection, having the cause of death was objectively and legally determined by autopsy of cadavers" and "Information/report on the number of deaths in Portugal, since the beginning of the declared pandemic, caused by SARS-Cov2 infection, with the cause of death being solely measured by means of the PCR test”. These responses were as follows:

"After analyzing SICO's replica base from 01-01-2020 to 18-04-2021, we were able to ascertain the following distributions so far:

Between 2020 and 2021, 152 death certificates were issued by doctors working for the Ministry of Justice (INMLCF) whose basic cause of death was due to COVID 19 according to the following distribution:

Of the 152 death certificates, 132 deaths the underlying cause was U071 (COVID 19-identified virus) and 20 deaths the underlying cause was U072 (COVID 19 -not identified in the laboratory).

Of the 152 death certificates, autopsy was not required for 148 deaths, with 129 deaths being the underlying cause of death U071 and 19 deaths the underlying cause of [sic] death was U072.

Of the 152 deaths, 4 deaths were not exempted from the autopsy, with 3 deaths being the underlying cause of death U071 and 1 death the underlying cause being U072.” ,

can be read in the document , which cites the response, dated 19-4-2021, by the Government bodies summoned by the records.

From the silver information on the only 152 deaths certified by Covid-19 between January 2020 and May 2021 - either by declaration of the doctors of the National Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences (INMLCF) or after an autopsy -, that the MS it needs to reform its operational and administrative procedures for recording and reporting deaths from this disease . Otherwise, it is subject to questioning the official numbers that the DGS releases without the necessary administrative certification.

The same in relation to data not provided from scientific studies, more than a year after the application of unprecedented restrictions , which may lead citizens to question the narratives, conveyed by the political power, appointed experts and systemic media, allegedly based on science.

The sentence determined the extinction of the instance, since the defendant had already responded with those data and no longer had it in his possession, and for "impossibility and futility of the dispute" imputed to the MS and the DGS, including the totality of the court costs of the process.
The questions that were asked were very obviously designed to produce the result they were looking for:
Someone on the Internet wrote: The answered requests, allegedly the only ones in the possession of DGS, were only items l) in), respectively, “Information/report on the number of deaths in Portugal, since the beginning of the declared pandemic, caused by SARS-Cov2 infection, having the cause of death was objectively and legally determined by autopsy of cadavers" and "Information/report on the number of deaths in Portugal, since the beginning of the declared pandemic, caused by SARS-Cov2 infection, with the cause of death being solely measured by means of the PCR test”.
In other words, of 17,000 suspected Covid deaths, only 152 were autopsied. Autopsies are only ever done in A) suspicious circumstances, or B) where the cause of death is unknown. My mother wasn't autopsied either - but trust me, it was cancer.

The article is absolutely NOT saying that only 152 people died of Covid. It's saying that only 152 of those suspected Covid deaths were verified by autopsy. Next time, at least read the fucking article before spouting it as evidence of a a massive global conspiracy, and don't assume that everybody here lacks the motive and intellect to find and understand a translation.
blasted off wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:58 pm All the “others” died for various reasons, although their PCR test was positive.
No, they didn't. You assumed that, because you couldn't be bothered to fully understand what you were reading. The title of "Lisbon court rules only 0.9% of ‘verified cases’ actually died of Covid" is pure, unadulterated, bullshit clickbait, if not an outright lie. But yanno, keep interpreting the numbers to fit whatever narrative you choose to believe.

Sometimes I weep for humanity.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by altiplano »

CpnCrunch wrote:Your plane pretty much flies itself.
Hahaha... does it now... just like you're up on the science.

The only thing you're up on is the media circus and reciting the dogma circulating on this topic.

In Canada the mortality rate of people infected with covid is about 00.15%, that's of all diagnosed cases, as we know the actual number of covid cases, undiagnosed, unreported, or asymptomatic is higher. So in fact the mortality rate is lower and in my age group with no comorbidities lower yet.

To break that down further.
- roughly 11,000,000 in the 30-49 age group in Canada,
- roughly 435,000 of those were called a covid case, (~3.5%),
- of that 440 people died with covid (~0.1%)
- so 0.1% of 3.5% have died with covid,
- that's 00.0035% to this point of both catching and dying with covid (ignoring co-morbidities).

Additionally I'm in a lower risk factor for exposure to covid and for comorbidities causing issue.

I'm more likely to get ran over by a car in front of my house, and I'm not worried about that.

So I'm not in any rush, vaccines are limited and being used up by people that can't get their bookings fast enough anyway.

I respect your decision, you should respect where I'm coming from too. I'm not anti-vax, but I've made my own assessment on the probabilities and risks. I'm in no hurry, when you really break down the numbers, the risk is extremely low, when you add in health and exposure probabilities even lower.

Good luck with the rest of your pandemic.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by notwhoyouthinkIam »

altiplano wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:23 pm
CpnCrunch wrote:Your plane pretty much flies itself.
Hahaha... does it now... just like you're up on the science.

The only thing you're up on is the media circus and reciting the dogma circulating on this topic.

In Canada the mortality rate of people infected with covid is about 00.15%, that's of all diagnosed cases, as we know the actual number of covid cases, undiagnosed, unreported, or asymptomatic is higher. So in fact the mortality rate is lower and in my age group with no comorbidities lower yet.

To break that down further.
- roughly 11,000,000 in the 30-49 age group in Canada,
- roughly 435,000 of those were called a covid case, (~3.5%),
- of that 440 people died with covid (~0.1%)
- so 0.1% of 3.5% have died with covid,
- that's 00.0035% to this point of both catching and dying with covid (ignoring co-morbidities).

Additionally I'm in a lower risk factor for exposure to covid and for comorbidities causing issue.

I'm more likely to get ran over by a car in front of my house, and I'm not worried about that.

So I'm not in any rush, vaccines are limited and being used up by people that can't get their bookings fast enough anyway.

I respect your decision, you should respect where I'm coming from too. I'm not anti-vax, but I've made my own assessment on the probabilities and risks. I'm in no hurry, when you really break down the numbers, the risk is extremely low, when you add in health and exposure probabilities even lower.

Good luck with the rest of your pandemic.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... fects.html

I suggest you read about the long term effects of COVID and make your decision after being informed. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of people getting COVID is small enough not to worry. Moreso, it's mostly the unvaccinated who are getting sick, but those tend to be the people who don't take any precautions whatsoever.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:57 pm https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... fects.html

I suggest you read about the long term effects of COVID and make your decision after being informed. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of people getting COVID is small enough not to worry. Moreso, it's mostly the unvaccinated who are getting sick, but those tend to be the people who don't take any precautions whatsoever.
To be fair, we know about as much of the long term effects of Covid as we do about the vaccines.

But I agree that not everyone who is vaccine "hesitant" (for lack of a better term) is therefore an anti-vax flat Earth conspiracy theorist nutbar. I'll even bet that the majority aren't. I may disagree with them, but that doesn't mean I think they're totally out to lunch. My world has room for nuance.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by FL320 »

CpnCrunch wrote:
The facts show that covid has a mortaility risk, but the vaccines (pfizer/moderna) don't (from what I can see). We have various studies looking at changes to the dosing for second shot, so that doesn't seem to be an issue either.
First you should be banned for spreading fake information; then you show a profond disrespect to these people who passed away because of this vaccine! These deaths are real and are reported by Doctors on VAERS and the European report system. This information is available to you directly on the official websites…..Mortality risk is proven not to be zero!
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by altiplano »

notwhoyouthinkIam wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:57 pm https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... fects.html

I suggest you read about the long term effects of COVID and make your decision after being informed. As far as I'm concerned, the amount of people getting COVID is small enough not to worry. Moreso, it's mostly the unvaccinated who are getting sick, but those tend to be the people who don't take any precautions whatsoever.
Seriously? Do you think I haven't read these things?

I'm informed.

The amount of people getting covid is small, the number with lasting symptoms is smaller.

500 cases a day in this country and falling fast. All that's left is to declare the pandemic over and move on.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

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FL320 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:39 am
The facts show that covid has a mortaility risk, but the vaccines (pfizer/moderna) don't (from what I can see). We have various studies looking at changes to the dosing for second shot, so that doesn't seem to be an issue either.
First you should be banned for spreading fake information; then you show a profond disrespect to these people who passed away because of this vaccine! These deaths are real and are reported on VAERS and the European report system. Mortality risk is proven not to be zero!
Some people just choose to ignore large sections of the information it seems.

People absolutely died in this country from a covid vaccines, some people were horribly injured and debilitated by them, amputation, stroke, cardiac problems.

Media doesn't like to report it widely because it doesn't follow the way they want to steer public opinion. They're "cancelling" people for expressing dissenting views or simply questioning what's going on, that's how hard they are controlling the message that most people are getting.

I look forward to an auditor general report or similar in the future when the fog clears and we look back on what has happened these last 18 months.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by CpnCrunch »

altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:57 am
FL320 wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:39 am
The facts show that covid has a mortaility risk, but the vaccines (pfizer/moderna) don't (from what I can see). We have various studies looking at changes to the dosing for second shot, so that doesn't seem to be an issue either.
First you should be banned for spreading fake information; then you show a profond disrespect to these people who passed away because of this vaccine! These deaths are real and are reported on VAERS and the European report system. Mortality risk is proven not to be zero!
Some people just choose to ignore large sections of the information it seems.

People absolutely died in this country from a covid vaccines, some people were horribly injured and debilitated by them, amputation, stroke, cardiac problems.

Media doesn't like to report it widely because it doesn't follow the way they want to steer public opinion. They're "cancelling" people for expressing dissenting views or simply questioning what's going on, that's how hard they are controlling the message that most people are getting.

I look forward to an auditor general report or similar in the future when the fog clears and we look back on what has happened these last 18 months.
Ref? Talking mortality caused by pfzer and moderna, not az. I see fl320 couldnt provide a ref before when i asked.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... vents.html

I think some people deliberately misundstand vaers even after it has been explaained multiple times.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by CpnCrunch »

altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:41 am
500 cases a day in this country and falling fast. All that's left is to declare the pandemic over and move on.
That's great if you stay in Canada. UK has 27000 new cases per day. I'm booked to go there in a couple of months, but who knows what's going to happen.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by Babar350 »

One cannot rely on cases anymore since the vaccine is supposed to prevent serious symptoms.
Even a flu symptom will get the vaccinated tested.

So what is the ratio positive cases / ICUed?
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by CpnCrunch »

altiplano wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:23 pm
To break that down further.
- roughly 11,000,000 in the 30-49 age group in Canada,
- roughly 435,000 of those were called a covid case, (~3.5%),
- of that 440 people died with covid (~0.1%)
- so 0.1% of 3.5% have died with covid,
- that's 00.0035% to this point of both catching and dying with covid (ignoring co-morbidities).
Your statistics are a bit suspect. There are 139 deaths in the 30-39 group, not 440, and population of 30-39 year olds is 5.3 million, not 11 million.

And those lower figures are mainly due to vaccinations and lockdowns. If we didn't have those then everyone would eventually catch covid, so your 3.5% figure doesn't make sense. On the other hand if you are basing your stats on people being vaccinated, you're essentially letting everyone else do the work of reducing covid. But that's fine with me, as long as it doesn't affect my travel (which it has).

And there are also the ICU cases: 817 in that age group.
I'm more likely to get ran over by a car in front of my house, and I'm not worried about that.
Well that's a good example, because getting run over is something you have a lot of control over. Practically every case I see is from pedestrians walking out into the road (usually in the middle of the night with dark clothes) and not looking. There are a few counter examples of people getting hit on the sidewalk, but they are indeed very rare. Same with flying...there is a lot you can do to change your risk profile. And COVID is the same.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by altiplano »

CpnCrunch wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:07 am
altiplano wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:23 pm
To break that down further.
- roughly 11,000,000 in the 30-49 age group in Canada,
- roughly 435,000 of those were called a covid case, (~3.5%),
- of that 440 people died with covid (~0.1%)
- so 0.1% of 3.5% have died with covid,
- that's 00.0035% to this point of both catching and dying with covid (ignoring co-morbidities).
Your statistics are a bit suspect. There are 139 deaths in the 30-39 group, not 440, and population of 30-39 year olds is 5.3 million, not 11 million.

And those lower figures are mainly due to vaccinations and lockdowns. If we didn't have those then everyone would eventually catch covid, so your 3.5% figure doesn't make sense. On the other hand if you are basing your stats on people being vaccinated, you're essentially letting everyone else do the work of reducing covid. But that's fine with me, as long as it doesn't affect my travel (which it has).

And there are also the ICU cases: 817 in that age group.
I'm more likely to get ran over by a car in front of my house, and I'm not worried about that.
Well that's a good example, because getting run over is something you have a lot of control over. Practically every case I see is from pedestrians walking out into the road (usually in the middle of the night with dark clothes) and not looking. There are a few counter examples of people getting hit on the sidewalk, but they are indeed very rare. Same with flying...there is a lot you can do to change your risk profile. And COVID is the same.
I'm referencing 30-49.

As you say, behaviour counts regarding risk profile. I'm not living in close quarter buildings or working in warehouses with hundreds of people that take public transit to work.

Absolutely numbers to date count. And most of that time has been pre-vaccine.

In past pandemics without vaccines did everybody catch it eventually? Spanish flu (H1N1) no vaccine but only 1/3 of the world population contracted the illness. That pandemic burnt out after a couple years with no pharmaceutical intervention. This one will burn out too... they all do eventually... that's just historical record.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by photofly »

CpnCrunch wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:07 amyou’re essentially letting everyone else do the work of reducing covid.
I agree. And that’s why I think those of us who do take the risk of being vaccinated, get to choose what restrictions are placed on those who refuse. Including in terms of what jobs they can hold, where they can travel, and what restrictions are placed on them when they get there. That’s 100% ok with me.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by altiplano »

photofly wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:32 am
CpnCrunch wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:07 amyou’re essentially letting everyone else do the work of reducing covid.
I agree. And that’s why I think those of us who do take the risk of being vaccinated, get to choose what restrictions are placed on those who refuse. Including in terms of what jobs they can hold, where they can travel, and what restrictions are placed on them when they get there. That’s 100% ok with me.
What do you mean "take the risk" you guys are going to length to say that there is no risk from vaccines.

And fascist tribalism is your proposal?

You guys are bat shit crazy. Go to China if you don't want to live in a free society.

Or how about we base the say of how our society runs proportionally by personal taxes paid?
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:00 am What do you mean "take the risk" you guys are going to length to say that there is no risk from vaccines.
No. We go to length to say the vaccine carries less risk than the virus.
altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:00 am You guys are bat shit crazy. Go to China if you don't want to live in a free society.
Personal attacks will not help your argument. Please refrain from personal attacks and insults.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by photofly »

altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:00 am What do you mean "take the risk" you guys are going to length to say that there is no risk from vaccines.
Of course there's a risk. All vaccines have a risk.
And fascist tribalism is your proposal?
You can join my tribe pretty quickly, if you don't like the way your tribe is restricted in employment and travel.

I will fight for your right to choose not to be vaccinated, but I will fight for my right to hold you responsible for your choice.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by altiplano »

photofly wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:44 am
altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:00 am What do you mean "take the risk" you guys are going to length to say that there is no risk from vaccines.
Of course there's a risk. All vaccines have a risk.
And fascist tribalism is your proposal?
You can join my tribe pretty quickly, if you don't like the way your tribe is restricted in employment and travel.

I will fight for your right to choose not to be vaccinated, but I will fight for my right to hold you responsible for your choice.
I think my tribe and those that may initially be in yours but see the light will overthrow your tribe and take our free society back. There is no end to policies and thinking like yours and where it can and will go. Vaccination status it's just the first... That isn't where or how I want to live.

Enjoy your elitist fascist day dream while it lasts because it will never come to be.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by photofly »

How does it come to be elitist? In Canada, at any rate, vaccines are available to anyone who wants one, free of charge. That sounds very egalitarian to me.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by altiplano »

photofly wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:10 am How does it come to be elitist? In Canada, at any rate, vaccines are available to anyone who wants one, free of charge. That sounds very egalitarian to me.
Because you perceive yourself to be superior to others who made different decisions than you or perhaps weigh risks differently.

That you somehow think that "risk" you took qualifies you to dictate what jobs others can do? where they can travel? how they participate in society? Your hubris is astounding. You are batshit crazy.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by CpnCrunch »



Why don't you refrain from being such a little bitch, get your dick out of your mouth, and go @#$! yourself.

LOL! That's more of a personal insult...
The funny thing is this guy (making an assumption here that it's a guy) is an AC captain, and he was complaining in January that Canada was lagging behind in vaccination because Trudeau had screwed up ordering them.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by montado »

Moving to America has never looked so good!

Freedom and liberties is why America is the greatest country in the world.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by photofly »

altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:28 pm
photofly wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:10 am How does it come to be elitist? In Canada, at any rate, vaccines are available to anyone who wants one, free of charge. That sounds very egalitarian to me.
Because you perceive yourself to be superior to others who made different decisions than you or perhaps weigh risks differently.

That you somehow think that "risk" you took qualifies you to dictate what jobs others can do? where they can travel? how they participate in society? Your hubris is astounding. You are batshit crazy.
I think people who refuse a vaccine are freeloading the benefits off those who do get vaccinated, and are therefore selfish sh*ts. I fully support their right to be selfish sh*ts, because we live in a free society. But that’s free as in freedom of choice, not freedom from consequences. I have no reluctance to sneer at them, look down my nose at them, or declare myself to be superior for not being a selfish sh*t. I don’t think I’m alone in that opinion. If the consequences of refusing to be vaccinated are unpleasant, inconvenient or expensive - I’m not even slightly sympathetic.
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by StuckMike2 »

photofly wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:21 pm
altiplano wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:28 pm
photofly wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:10 am How does it come to be elitist? In Canada, at any rate, vaccines are available to anyone who wants one, free of charge. That sounds very egalitarian to me.
Because you perceive yourself to be superior to others who made different decisions than you or perhaps weigh risks differently.

That you somehow think that "risk" you took qualifies you to dictate what jobs others can do? where they can travel? how they participate in society? Your hubris is astounding. You are batshit crazy.
I think people who refuse a vaccine are freeloading the benefits off those who do get vaccinated, and are therefore selfish sh*ts. I fully support their right to be selfish sh*ts, because we live in a free society. But that’s free as in freedom of choice, not freedom from consequences. I have no reluctance to sneer at them, look down my nose at them, or declare myself to be superior for not being a selfish sh*t. I don’t think I’m alone in that opinion. If the consequences of refusing to be vaccinated are unpleasant, inconvenient or expensive - I’m not even slightly sympathetic.
Who are you to look down at unvaccinated people.

As far as I know, it is not illegal to be unvaccinated. people should have the freedom to decide what they want to do with their bodies.
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photofly
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Re: 3 BA pilots died following their 2nd jab this last week

Post by photofly »

I completely agree that people should be free to go unvaccinated.

But they are not free to escape the consequences of that decision, whatever those consequences turn out to be.

There is a hospital in Texas that has just dismissed 153 nurses for refusing to be vaccinated. That’s just the start.
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.nytimes ... e.amp.html
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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