What’s the rules for logging Actual?

[PilotY]

Hi all,

In the middle of my instrument training right now. I’ve been talking to a few different instructors on how “Actual IMC” is logged in your logbooks. Some instructors swear by a rule stating “.3 for every hour is the industry standard” but I’ve heard some of the other IFR instructors say that you can log your entire air time as actual because regardless of weather conditions, “you’re filed IFR, you’re not using a VNC”.

Some other people have mentioned that flying OTT doesn’t count. Idk what to think of this because sure you might have a horizon, but all other aspects of your flight require you to be on navigational instruments.

Anyone got any thoughts?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

There's a whole thread about this topic from a few years ago. It seems they couldn't come to a consensus at that time either, and based on what people are telling you, it seems it still hasn't been answered in black and white.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=127428&start=20

As I fly for a 705 airline, I do what a lot of people do and log 10% of my actual flight as Actual IMC. I.E. on a 4 hour flight, I'll log 0.4 as actual IMC.

I figure it all works itself out in the end as there are days when the whole flight is IMC from takeoff to landing and other days where it's severe clear all the way from Toronto to Cancun.

[photofly]

“Actual IMC” is not a thingL and IMC is not IFR.

“Actual Instrument time” is time in the clouds. If you have a real horizon to fly by, it’s Not instrument time. If you’re controlling the plane solely by reference to the instruments it’s instrument time.

What’s remotely difficult about that?

[digits_]

“Actual IMC” is not a thingL and IMC is not IFR.

“Actual Instrument time” is time in the clouds. If you have a real horizon to fly by, it’s Not instrument time. If you’re controlling the plane solely by reference to the instruments it’s instrument time.

What’s remotely difficult about that?

You can fly by reference to the instruments even if you have a horizon outside. How are you going to track a radial without looking at your instruments?
"Actual instrument time" is not defined in the CARs.

That's what's difficult about it.

[photofly]

Solely by reference to the instruments. If you do that and there’s a horizon outside, it’s simulated instrument time.

What is the purpose of logging instrument time?

[digits_]

Solely by reference to the instruments. If you do that and there’s a horizon outside, it’s simulated instrument time.

Says who?

[photofly]

This is in the Approved Person Policy Manual:

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/ ... 19-eng.pdf

INSTRUMENT FLIGHT TIME: any flight time in an aircraft while piloting the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments. This flight time can be accumulated while operating under instrument flight rules (IFR), in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC), or in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) during flight training by means which limit a pilot’s ability to see outside the cockpit environment such as while under a hood or wearing limited vision goggles.

So if you want your instrument rating signed off by an AP, that’s the definition you had better use.

Annex 1 to the international convention on civil aviation includes more or less the same definition.

[Beefitarian]

Rule one, don’t talk about logging actual.

[lownslow]

If you’re getting a rating signed off the inspector will take note of ‘actual IMC’ is over about 10% of your total time. I don’t know if this is by staff instruction or just them shooting from the hip but people (myself included) have had Wx records pulled to verify the amount of IMC likely flown in. Some have had their application for a rating declined over it.

[digits_]

This is in the Approved Person Policy Manual:

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/ ... 19-eng.pdf

INSTRUMENT FLIGHT TIME: any flight time in an aircraft while piloting the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments. This flight time can be accumulated while operating under instrument flight rules (IFR), in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC), or in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) during flight training by means which limit a pilot’s ability to see outside the cockpit environment such as while under a hood or wearing limited vision goggles.

So if you want your instrument rating signed off by an AP, that’s the definition you had better use.

Annex 1 to the international convention on civil aviation includes more or less the same definition.

Okay, that says IFR, IMC or VMC with a hood. Weird that this implies you could fly in IMC while not IFR, but the list still allows IFR time as instrument flight time, as long as you pilot the plane by sole reference to the flight instruments. It doesn't say you can't have a horizon available outside, only that you can't use it.

[photofly]

This is in the Approved Person Policy Manual:

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/ ... 19-eng.pdf

INSTRUMENT FLIGHT TIME: any flight time in an aircraft while piloting the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments. This flight time can be accumulated while operating under instrument flight rules (IFR), in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC), or in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) during flight training by means which limit a pilot’s ability to see outside the cockpit environment such as while under a hood or wearing limited vision goggles.

So if you want your instrument rating signed off by an AP, that’s the definition you had better use.

Annex 1 to the international convention on civil aviation includes more or less the same definition.

Okay, that says IFR, IMC or VMC with a hood. Weird that this implies you could fly in IMC while not IFR, but the list still allows IFR time as instrument flight time, as long as you pilot the plane by sole reference to the flight instruments. It doesn't say you can't have a horizon available outside, only that you can't use it.

The point is, instrument time is flight time while piloting by sole reference to the instruments.

I think the comma after "... flight rules (IFR)" is there in error, but it doesn't make much difference. It's very clear which time you can log as instrument time.

ICAO Annex 1 says this:

Screen Shot 2021-07-05 at 9.20.04 PM.png (31.33 KiB) Viewed 3134 times

[digits_]

Just because they are there doesn't mean you are using them, or have to use them. When visibility is below the required vfr values, you might still have external references. Yet you aren't legal to fly vfr, so you must fly IFR because you are in IMC. According to your interpretation, this would not count as instrument time.

[photofly]

If you’re not flying solely by reference to the instruments, it’s not instrument time.

If you’re using external references - any external references - then it’s not instrument time.

You’re right, in that the definition doesn’t depend on whether and what references are available, merely on, if there are some, whether you are using them.

I guess there could be some marginal time where you’ve kind of got some glimpses of the ground for a few seconds here and there that might make it hard to decide if you are or aren’t using them for reference at any time. But that’s not ambiguity in the definition, that’s just a difficulty of applying what seems as clear a criterion as ever there was in a TC document when right on the margin.

[NobodyImportant]

This is in the Approved Person Policy Manual:

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/ ... 19-eng.pdf

INSTRUMENT FLIGHT TIME: any flight time in an aircraft while piloting the aircraft by sole reference to the flight instruments. This flight time can be accumulated while operating under instrument flight rules (IFR),

<snip>(emphasis mine)

Seems pretty clear cut to me. All time flown under an IFR flight plan is instrument time. Am I missing something?

[digits_]

To go on a tangent, according to the ICAO definition you could also argue that any time the autopilot is on and in some nav mode, is instrument time, as the only source of navigation at that time, are instruments (because the autopilot can not see). You looking outside enjoying the view has no effect on the piloting of the airplane.

[photofly]

Having an autopilot engaged in some mode doesn’t mean the pilot(s) aren’t controlling the aircraft: someone is monitoring the autopilot and is responsible for aircraft control. Are they doing that by outside reference, or solely by reference to the instruments?

[NotDirty!]

What if I can see the horizon, but I’m playing bagpipes or a banjo… isn’t that still instrument flight time?

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I reiterate my original response to OP at the beginning of this thread, and it still seems like people will argue the proper way to log the time.

There's a whole thread about this topic from a few years ago. It seems they couldn't come to a consensus at that time either, and based on what people are telling you, it seems it still hasn't been answered in black and white.

It's the same scenario if 2 F/O's are in the cockpit but the Captain is taking a nap in the bunk. Even though they're sleeping, the Captain is still PIC, and neither of the F/O's can log PIC time even though they're the ones actually at the controls.

I wonder though if the Captain became incapacitated, could an F/O log PIC time for the period the Captain was incapacitated? Now we're splitting hairs same as the "actual" instrument time question.

[Float_lover]

I've always find that funny in the logbook, actual IMC. But there is nowhere to log the IFR time... I don't need to track IMC but IFR for 95% of the time..

[digits_]

Page 99 of the authorized persons manual gives a bit more info, specifically for IFR flight instructors though:

Note: IFR flight instructors will often ask about logging of instrument time in their own log book for use towards the ATPL requirements. It is important for instructors to understand they can log instrument time during an IFR flight to which an IFR flight plan is filed only during IMC conditions. If part of the flight was IMC then only the portion in IMC can be logged as instrument time. If the IFR flight was conducted in VMC then no instrument time can be counted.

[AirFrame]

Page 99 of the authorized persons manual gives a bit more info, specifically for IFR flight instructors though:

Note: IFR flight instructors will often ask about logging of instrument time in their own log book for use towards the ATPL requirements. It is important for instructors to understand they can log instrument time during an IFR flight to which an IFR flight plan is filed only during IMC conditions. If part of the flight was IMC then only the portion in IMC can be logged as instrument time. If the IFR flight was conducted in VMC then no instrument time can be counted.

And presumably that all refers to flights where they are actively instructing, not just flying themselves around.

[photofly]

I think the confusion there is that (according to my interpretation, anyway) when you conduct training towards an instrument rating and the trainee flies practice approaches to minimums, those approaches count towards the instructor's own requirements for recency in respect of flying six approaches in the last six months, even if the aircraft was in VMC at the time.

[‘Bob’]

You guys are making it far too complicated.

Nobody puts on a stopwatch when they are on instruments.

Nobody has any way of verifying whether it meets the conditions of instrument time or not. It’s not like night, or multi engine, or instructor time where there are solid demarcation lines as to what is and isn’t loggable.

The only thing that matters is TC’s interpretation of it for the issuance of a license or rating, and currency should it come up (likely only in the case of an accident or violation). Excessively high actual instrument time will invoke the ire of TC and you’ll have to do some explaining or remove it.

I log .2 for every approach I do where I’m IMC for the full procedure beyond the FAF, and .1 for going through layers. When I’m IMC the whole flight I’ll take .2 off the total time. And none for filed IFR in VMC conditions.

And? It works out to about 10%.

And really… it doesn’t matter in the end. Either simulated or actual is acceptable for the issuance of a license or rating… and in the real world, nobody cares. “Yeah… candidate A has 1000 hours instrument and candidate B only has 250…. so we’ll hire the 2000 hour guy instead of the 3500 hour guy.” Is something that the CP or HR will never say.

Like night, “actual” instrument time has so many different flavours that hours alone cannot qualify experience.