No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[acpaleaks]

.

There is a reason things pass. Most are very happy. Very very happy.

I guess they’re too stupid to realize how bad it is.

They are happy because they don’t realize. It has nothing to do with intelligence.

The real out of touch leadership are those who think the members would be happy if they knew.

It is why most of the leadership is dead quite on any reference of the past. They know full well how bad the picture is

There's a reason ACPA doesn't do contract comparisons. It would show how poor of a job they've done in the last 25 years. Sadly there are still so many ACPA apologists. And it's not just the MEC, our LRD sucks, negots get no real training, very little support unlike ALPA which runs fantastic workshops/courses.

[Counterpoint]

Altiplano,

Ask your source for that table again, then scroll down to the last year of that table (your picture stops at 2001), I’ll bet (but not sure) that last year on the table is the equivalent year for all the preceding years hourly pay rates. Juste à guess.

But I know we didn’t make that kind of money in 1987. No even close. An L1011 CA topped out at about $135,000 in 1989, I know because I asked him back then.

[altiplano]

Out come the big guns, eh!

Circle the wagons ACPA!

Why don't you just post the real pay tables.

You have them. I might have made an honest mistake, but it's slight, the gist is correct. We fall back year after year and it's significant.

[acpaleaks]

Altiplano,


But I know we didn’t make that kind of money in 1987. No even close. An L1011 CA topped out at about $135,000 in 1989, I know because I asked him back then.

Yeah and a house in Toronto and Vancouver was one years income.

[Counterpoint]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

[redbusdriver]

interesting discussion. no one is going to change any minds on here, so i'm not going to try. will let the voting do the talking in 2-3 yrs.

as for historical contract you'll find em here http://negotech.labour.gc.ca/cgi-bin/Re ... =&p30=&q5=

[acpaleaks]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

Hmm you sound awful familiar...

[Fanblade]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

Counterpoint I love it when you post. Aren’t you breaking your own social media protocol?

Everyone should read his post twice. Particularly so if you haven’t been very engaged. You are getting a glimpse of ACPA’s attitude toward its members.

ACPA won’t produce any historical benchmarking and won’t provide the resources to the membership to do it themselves.

Yet when someone tries to cobble together a comparison? Deal with it? No. Reassess? No. Look in the mirror? No. Look for the weak leg to kick out? Yes.

Counterpoint knows full well that all these piecemeal benchmarks exercises are all on to something. Some more accurate than others but all pointing the same way. The story, the theme, the narrative accurate.

But the response is all condensation and arrogance. Absolutely zero substance on the issue people are raising.

In fact the very first sentence says it all. Yes ACPA it is YOUR job to do contract comparisons. It is your job to benchmark us to other airline with whom we compete. You are paid millions to represent the MEMBERS interests.

It should not be left to individual members to attempt. It’s too easy for you to pick them off one at a time.

ALPA is member driven. ACPA is member bullied.

[altiplano]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

If there is an error in the one table, I've acknowledged that, and I did say that it painted it worse than I thought, but make no mistake it is still bad.

You're the one saying I'm wrong, you're the one defending the decline, you say that you have the correct table, so post it then and enlighten us all... or will you not, because you know that it's still not good.

You have access and you know the association limits access to the broader membership that aren't in your circle. So let's see it. Post the pay table.

[Counterpoint]

I don’t have the reste of the table, I don’t have a source - I’ve said that already.

But you do, and can get the reste of the table, so get it and post it.

My guess on the numbers of that table is purely a guess, I’ve even said so. The numbers were so erroneous, I spotted it right away.

But your complaint is about the last 20 years, which is where the table ends, get the reste of the table and see if you’re right.

Let’s see if it really is a decline, because the table you posted shows a substantial increase - not a decrease like your analysis bullshits about.

[Fanblade]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

If there is an error in the one table, I've acknowledged that, and I did say that it painted it worse than I thought, but make no mistake it is still bad.

You're the one saying I'm wrong, you're the one defending the decline, you say that you have the correct table, so post it then and enlighten us all... or will you not, because you know that it's still not good.

You have access and you know the association limits access to the broader membership that aren't in your circle. So let's see it. Post the pay table.

Which brings me to the next question.

Counterpoint what is your relationship to a220hereicome? Who in ACPA is providing him/her resources ACPA won’t provide to the general membership?

[Fanblade]

I don’t have the reste of the table, I don’t have a source - I’ve said that already.

But you do, and can get the reste of the table, so get it and post it.

My guess on the numbers of that table is purely a guess, I’ve even said so. The numbers were so erroneous, I spotted it right away.

But your complaint is about the last 20 years, which is where the table ends, get the reste of the table and see if you’re right.

Let’s see if it really is a decline, because the table you posted shows a substantial increase - not a decrease like your analysis bullshits about.

You really have no limits on your gaslighting do you.

Keep posting.

[acpaleaks]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

Counterpoint I love it when you post. Aren’t you breaking your own social media protocol?

Everyone should read his post twice. Particularly so if you haven’t been very engaged. You are getting a glimpse of ACPA’s attitude toward its members.

ACPA won’t produce any historical benchmarking and won’t provide the resources to the membership to do it themselves.

Yet when someone tries to cobble together a comparison? Deal with it? No. Reassess? No. Look in the mirror? No. Look for the weak leg to kick out? Yes.

Counterpoint knows full well that all these piecemeal benchmarks exercises are all on to something. Some more accurate than others but all pointing the same way. The story, the theme, the narrative accurate.

But the response is all condensation and arrogance. Absolutely zero substance on the issue people are raising.

In fact the very first sentence says it all. Yes ACPA it is YOUR job to do contract comparisons. It is your job to benchmark us to other airline with whom we compete. You are paid millions to represent the MEMBERS interests.

It should not be left to individual members to attempt. It’s too easy for you to pick them off one at a time.

ALPA is member driven. ACPA is member bullied.

ACPA won't to a comparison because it would show how shit they are. Why would you publicly display how bad you are at negotiating?

P4C just released a little bit of information about wages and said they have been working on more comparisons so it's full bore now from the MEC leaders to try to discredit the data. Is is weird I trust a bunch of random people in a non official group over my own union to produce credible information?

[altiplano]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

Counterpoint I love it when you post. Aren’t you breaking your own social media protocol?

Everyone should read his post twice. Particularly so if you haven’t been very engaged. You are getting a glimpse of ACPA’s attitude toward its members.

ACPA won’t produce any historical benchmarking and won’t provide the resources to the membership to do it themselves.

Yet when someone tries to cobble together a comparison? Deal with it? No. Reassess? No. Look in the mirror? No. Look for the weak leg to kick out? Yes.

Counterpoint knows full well that all these piecemeal benchmarks exercises are all on to something. Some more accurate than others but all pointing the same way. The story, the theme, the narrative accurate.

But the response is all condensation and arrogance. Absolutely zero substance on the issue people are raising.

In fact the very first sentence says it all. Yes ACPA it is YOUR job to do contract comparisons. It is your job to benchmark us to other airline with whom we compete. You are paid millions to represent the MEMBERS interests.

It should not be left to individual members to attempt. It’s too easy for you to pick them off one at a time.

ALPA is member driven. ACPA is member bullied.

Right? ACPA MEC right here on avcanada. These guys only show up when it's time to sell a deal or obscure the truth of how bad a job they are doing for the membership.

We have not seen a contract comparison in over 10 years. Jalmer's work wasn't a comparison, he was directed to exclude other Legacy airlines and not address them as comparators. To tell ACPA members they deserve to get more money because they have to pay their own medical insurance in the US. Unbelievable.

[acpaleaks]

I don’t have the reste of the table, I don’t have a source - I’ve said that already.

Don't need a source when you're on the MEC.

[altiplano]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

If there is an error in the one table, I've acknowledged that, and I did say that it painted it worse than I thought, but make no mistake it is still bad.

You're the one saying I'm wrong, you're the one defending the decline, you say that you have the correct table, so post it then and enlighten us all... or will you not, because you know that it's still not good.

You have access and you know the association limits access to the broader membership that aren't in your circle. So let's see it. Post the pay table.

Which brings me to the next question.

Counterpoint what is your relationship to a220hereicome? Who in ACPA is providing him/her resources ACPA won’t provide to the general membership?

a220 told him about the thread of course, the dissent be had to help quell.

Circle the wagons ACPA!

[acpaleaks]

Let’s see if it really is a decline, because the table you posted shows a substantial increase - not a decrease like your analysis bullshits about.

Math isn't hard. It's clear looking at wages from 2003 that many positions are the same, similar or LESS.. dollar for dollar. We have never recovered after the pay cuts of 2003ish. Factor inflation close to 40% over the last 20 years and we're upsidedown. But keep preaching your nonsense you ACPA apologist. Open your eyes. Why do pilots defend our shit wages? FFS FLAIR makes more than our new hires... Multiple regionals in the USA do as well. New hire wages aren't the only issue either, it's the whole fleet

[acpaleaks]

Now all of a sudden it’s over to me to post the tables. The ACPA big gun I presume ?

Before you go blowing people’s minds with imaginative and false theories about pilot pay scales from 1987 all based on a table you don’t want to comment on or understand, even at a very easy first glance, you may want to see just how far your source has taken his bullshit analysis. The fact that you copied it without taking the time to analyze it seems just as silly as all your other anti-the ACPA rants. Your credibility is on the Dow slide.

But really, the meat of your complaint is in the table from 2001-to whenever it finishes; that’s your real complaint, so why not go to the source (I don’t have one, you do) and ask them to fill you in on the reste of the table.

Honest mistake ? Yup, I’ll buy that; now correct your sources analysis and get the reste of the table and then comment on pay rates adjusted for inflation. Validate your complaint yourself.

Counterpoint I love it when you post. Aren’t you breaking your own social media protocol?

Everyone should read his post twice. Particularly so if you haven’t been very engaged. You are getting a glimpse of ACPA’s attitude toward its members.

ACPA won’t produce any historical benchmarking and won’t provide the resources to the membership to do it themselves.

Yet when someone tries to cobble together a comparison? Deal with it? No. Reassess? No. Look in the mirror? No. Look for the weak leg to kick out? Yes.

Counterpoint knows full well that all these piecemeal benchmarks exercises are all on to something. Some more accurate than others but all pointing the same way. The story, the theme, the narrative accurate.

But the response is all condensation and arrogance. Absolutely zero substance on the issue people are raising.

In fact the very first sentence says it all. Yes ACPA it is YOUR job to do contract comparisons. It is your job to benchmark us to other airline with whom we compete. You are paid millions to represent the MEMBERS interests.

It should not be left to individual members to attempt. It’s too easy for you to pick them off one at a time.

ALPA is member driven. ACPA is member bullied.

Right? ACPA MEC right here on avcanada. These guys only show up when it's time to sell a deal or obscure the truth of how bad a job they are doing for the membership.

We have not seen a contract comparison in over 10 years. Jalmer's work wasn't a comparison, he was directed to exclude other Legacy airlines and not address them as comparators. To tell ACPA members they deserve to get more money because they have to pay their own medical insurance in the US. Unbelievable.

I'd happily pay medical if I got paid Delta wages and a 16% FULLY COMPANY FUNDED DC PENSION

But no here's your shit wages and shit CWIPP pension that's based on those shit wages. Also have a furlough that will effect your career earnings significantly but hey don't complain cause "we got furloughed too"... Except you have best 3 or 5... The disconnect is real.

[altiplano]

Let’s see if it really is a decline, because the table you posted shows a substantial increase - not a decrease like your analysis bullshits about.

Math isn't hard. It's clear looking at wages from 2003 that many positions are the same, similar or LESS.. dollar for dollar. We have never recovered after the pay cuts of 2003ish. Factor inflation close to 40% over the last 20 years and we're upsidedown. But keep preaching your nonsense you ACPA apologist. Open your eyes. Why do pilots defend our shit wages? FFS FLAIR makes more than our new hires... Multiple regionals in the USA do as well. New hire wages aren't the only issue either, it's the whole fleet

They try to steer it off that basic premise.

We are about the same salaries, give or take a bit, as we were 20 years ago.

Our work conditions have declined considerably.

Our scope had been eroded.

Our pension has been closed, lost indexing, and we pay 25% more into it while the corporation takes a forever funding holiday.

We have 4 year flat pay.

We have course rights.

We lost vacation.

We have B & C scales.

PBS is broken.

Our expenses are stolen every month.

But these guys are happy with the job they've done!

[acpaleaks]

Let’s see if it really is a decline, because the table you posted shows a substantial increase - not a decrease like your analysis bullshits about.

Math isn't hard. It's clear looking at wages from 2003 that many positions are the same, similar or LESS.. dollar for dollar. We have never recovered after the pay cuts of 2003ish. Factor inflation close to 40% over the last 20 years and we're upsidedown. But keep preaching your nonsense you ACPA apologist. Open your eyes. Why do pilots defend our shit wages? FFS FLAIR makes more than our new hires... Multiple regionals in the USA do as well. New hire wages aren't the only issue either, it's the whole fleet

They try to steer it off that basic premise.

We are about the same salaries, give or take a bit, as we were 20 years ago.

Our work conditions have declined considerably.

Our scope had been eroded.

Our pension has been closed, lost indexing, and we pay 25% more into it while the corporation takes a forever funding holiday.

We have 4 year flat pay.

We have course rights.

We lost vacation.

We have B & C scales.

PBS is broken.

Our expenses are stolen every month.

But these guys are happy with the job they've done!

At this point I can't see a valid reason why a few people would purposely try to sewer this career so badly while gaslighting everyone along the way unless they are getting kick backs. A couple dinners paid for by management or a hockey game or two shouldn't be enough for even the shittiest person to throw their fellow pilots under the bus this badly.

[Montroyal]

People are "very, very happy..."

What I find interesting here is how when ACPA sold us the cargo deal, their comparator graph had misconstrued data. It was discovered and called out. Remember - we pay ACPA in our dues and as a professional organization with a full time communications staff - you better have your shit in order. But it was a "oopsy"

Now we have a member here who came up with some data that everyone deep down knows is true. Canada's lone legacy carrier has been toilet bowling for a long time - and due mostly to an organization with no strategic vision & plan, led by egotistical "we know best" leaders who literally chastise any criticism (on full display here by the YUL Chair no less) and operated by a communication approach that makes North Korea look like a Emmy winning station.

And yet they look to weaken this alarming trend by attacking the number of posts the author has, bully him by attacking his personal life on a forum that ACPA doesn't even have.

Hey ACPA leaders on AvCanada - why don't you talk to us on accredited forum instead of trying push your narrative on here with an alias when we all know it is you?

You are literally embarrassing ALL OF US

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

People are "very, very happy..."

What I find interesting here is how when ACPA sold us the cargo deal, their comparator graph had misconstrued data. It was discovered and called out. Remember - we pay ACPA in our dues and as a professional organization with a full time communications staff - you better have your shit in order. But it was a "oopsy"

Now we have a member here who came up with some data that everyone deep down knows is true. Canada's lone legacy carrier has been toilet bowling for a long time - and due mostly to an organization with no strategic vision & plan, led by egotistical "we know best" leaders who literally chastise any criticism (on full display here by the YUL Chair no less) and operated by a communication approach that makes North Korea look like a Emmy winning station.

And yet they look to weaken this alarming trend by attacking the number of posts the author has, bully him by attacking his personal life on a forum that ACPA doesn't even have.

Hey ACPA leaders on AvCanada - why don't you talk to us on accredited forum instead of trying push your narrative on here with an alias when we all know it is you?

You are literally embarrassing ALL OF US

If you want people to take your argument seriously, you should avoid comparing a pilot union to a dictatorship government.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

If you want people to start taking you seriously you should stop associating the phrase "pilot union" with "ACPA"

[a220hereicome]

Reading through these old contracts, the pay rates tell a pretty straightforward story. We made very solid gains 1998-2003. These were completely wiped out in CCAA in 2003. 15% across the board pay cut, a further 5% cut on the A320, and then (I think) at least one year of frozen wages before a reopener in 2006. That’s a big hill to climb coming out the other side, and our wage increases since then haven’t regained what we lost. That’s been our challenge, and we haven’t met it. Some of us think moving to ALPA will change all that, and the membership will decide. Im fine either way, but I think you’ll have the same volunteers, and the same members bitching constantly on the forum (like altiplano) who will never run for office or volunteer for a committee.

The point of my post was to call out someone for posting (really) bullshit data. If your trusted source is the nationally elected member who was recently expelled, well, enough said.

As for you, altiplano. Hopefully a teachable moment.

[acpaleaks]

Reading through these old contracts, the pay rates tell a pretty straightforward story. We made very solid gains 1998-2003. These were completely wiped out in CCAA in 2003. 15% across the board pay cut, a further 5% cut on the A320, and then (I think) at least one year of frozen wages before a reopener in 2006. That’s a big hill to climb coming out the other side, and our wage increases since then haven’t regained what we lost. That’s been our challenge, and we haven’t met it. Some of us think moving to ALPA will change all that, and the membership will decide. Im fine either way, but I think you’ll have the same volunteers, and the same members bitching constantly on the forum (like altiplano) who will never run for office or volunteer for a committee.

The point of my post was to call out someone for posting (really) bullshit data. If your trusted source is the nationally elected member who was recently expelled, well, enough said.

As for you, altiplano. Hopefully a teachable moment.

The US airlines managed to climb that hill. They had similar losses and made it all back. ACPA needs to Google "snap back" and "sunset" clauses. Not even comparing wages, just what was lost and regained over the last 10-15 years in the USA vs. Canada.
And maybe stop saying yes all the time. At this point I'd rather ACPA do literally nothing then try to negotiate especially if it's related to bringing back furloughs. We have a contract, it's not going anywhere and force majeure is a red herring that will never happen or be approved with 9 billion of capital available to the corp. I have zero faith in our negotiating committee. Zero faith in MM, RW and EH. None.

This isn't even about ALPA. This is about shit leaders in ACPA. We can do a lot better than we currently are even under the ACPA banner if we had leaders with balls who understood what a contact comparison is and how to say "NO"... Tell me again what the pilots have gotten in return for all the flexibility? And don't say "only 600 furloughs" because the company was always going to and did lay off what they wanted. That's the benefit of a multi fleet system.