Air Tindi

[Invertago]

No one purposefully leaves with not enough fuel to make it, but plenty of people cut corners out of greed or laziness.

[RegionalPilot]

With the distance flown, I’m assuming they had 30 mins of fuel left when they departed, which represents minimum day VFR reserve from the previous flight.

I can only assume someone forgot to order fuel, or departed before getting the fuel from their supplier.

In relation to the president’s comment re: the potential engine failure, the Twin Otter has two separate belly tanks, each of them feeding their own engine. Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport, which then your second engine will fail on you due to fuel starvation in it’s assigned tank.

Seems like this is the most plausible scenario. As of why someone doesn’t check for fuel before taxing out, I’m looking forward to read a 100 page report that will outline exactly what is the swiss cheese model.

[pelmet]

How accurate are the fuel gauges in a twin otter?

Is there a reliable way to dip the tanks?

I seem to remember a Twin Otter(possibly Borek) on floats that had a faulty fuel guage(or guages) and they were dipping the tanks to measure them with some sort of measuring device that turned out to be inaccurate. An engine flamed out and they landed on a lake with less fuel than they thought they would have at that point when they departed. Anyone remember that?

Overall, I would say the main tank guages are pretty good while wing tip guages(if installed) were less reliable(subject to confirmation by others).

[pelmet]

I can only assume someone forgot to order fuel, or departed before getting the fuel from their supplier.

We had that happen once on a larger aircraft. An F/O that had a history of problems and an old time captain known for being slack. Not sure why they were not refueled.

The was a long pre-flight checklist which some captains expected to have been completed by the F/O by the time the captain came on board, which was sometimes very close to departure time after chatting away in dispatch.

I suspect that the checklist was done with the fuel not uplifted yet and was forgotten or the checklist was never done.

At least these guys caught it while taxiing out and had to taxi back. Maybe the told the pax that the forecast had changed creating a requirement for more fuel.

Therefore, I never did this checklist until fuelling was complete.

[SeptRepair]

No fuel in Tanks.jpg (58.95 KiB) Viewed 4372 times

Stolen from facebook

[Frozenwhirlybird]

No fuel in Tanks.jpg
Stolen from facebook

I've seen this picture and a few others now. Looks like the nose gear is sunk or bent back and the main is angled back a bit. Some wrinkling on the nose but that's it for visible damage from what I was able to see, obviously there will be significant structural damage after landing in half frozen swamp. There's some muck on top of the cockpit. Props and wings don't look like they touched anything. TBH, it looks like they sat it down at very low speed, threw up some swamp water and came to a sudden stop.

[digits_]

Props and wings don't look like they touched anything.

At least the engines weren't running.

[J31]

Sunset was about 540pm and it sounds like they touched down in the dark at 647 pm. Lots of march meadows north of Providence but they were very lucky to get down safely in the dark.

It is alleged they ran out of fuel. If they did it would go something like this:

Things probably got real for them when a low fuel light illuminated. Then the other tank low fuel light came on and the oh F@#K sense came over them. About 15 minutes after the forward tank low fuel light illuminated the number 1 engine flamed out. The number 2 engine would have flamed out about 20 minutes after the rear tank low fuel light illuminated.

Twin otter fuel gauges are usually fairly accurate and the low fuel lights are very accurate.

That is the way it goes in the Twin otter running out of fuel. I have never been in that position in the Twin Otter, but I know that if you the low fuel lights on, you want to be on the ground ASAP!

[bring me the horizon]

No fuel in Tanks.jpg
Stolen from facebook

it looks like they sat it down at very low speed, threw up some swamp water and came to a sudden stop.

It's amazing what you can do with a twin when you're light

[WestTexasDeathPencil]

No fuel in Tanks.jpg
Stolen from facebook

I've seen this picture and a few others now. Looks like the nose gear is sunk or bent back and the main is angled back a bit. Some wrinkling on the nose but that's it for visible damage from what I was able to see, obviously there will be significant structural damage after landing in half frozen swamp. There's some muck on top of the cockpit. Props and wings don't look like they touched anything. TBH, it looks like they sat it down at very low speed, threw up some swamp water and came to a sudden stop.

More than likely the case. Station 60 (the bulkhead that the nosegear is attached to) is generally regarded as being the weakest point on the Twin Otter. Lot of work to fix, but most of the Twin Otters I've flown have had it repaired at one point or another.

[cncpc]

Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport,

Unless I've forgotten my geography of that area, divert to the nearest highway might have been the best option.

Regardless of whatever criticism might be directed at the crew over fuel exhaustion, it happened. When it did, they flew with what they had left and they did a good job of that. Was there any moon that night? I don't think so.

[RegionalPilot]

Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport,

Unless I've forgotten my geography of that area, divert to the nearest highway might have been the best option.

Regardless of whatever criticism might be directed at the crew over fuel exhaustion, it happened. When it did, they flew with what they had left and they did a good job of that. Was there any moon that night? I don't think so.

There is no nearest highway. Where they went down, they already passed thru what looks like HWY 5. Too low I assume to glide back toward the road.

[Frozenwhirlybird]

Assuming one engine burns a few extra pounds per hour, the first engine will eventually run out of fuel, then after doing the shutdown drill and run some checks, maybe call company, divert to the closest airport,

Unless I've forgotten my geography of that area, divert to the nearest highway might have been the best option.

Regardless of whatever criticism might be directed at the crew over fuel exhaustion, it happened. When it did, they flew with what they had left and they did a good job of that. Was there any moon that night? I don't think so.

Highway is on the other side of providence. It’s now been slung out, a couple pics floating around somewhere.

[Frozenwhirlybird]

M

[co-joe]

I'm late to the bash fest but has a fuel leak been ruled out? it seems really odd to me that they were that short.

[Frozenwhirlybird]

I'm late to the bash fest but has a fuel leak been ruled out? it seems really odd to me that they were that short.

The president of Air Tindi flat out stated the plane left without sufficient fuel. I’m surprised he used such a strong statement. To me that statement does not allow that option.

[Spandau]

My response is born out of about 7000 hrs of Twin Otter time in essentially the same neighbourhood as this accident.

Twin Otter fuel gauges are famously reliable. As a rule they either work perfectly or not at all. I have no idea what happened here, but one night, many moons ago I departed Yellowknife for Snowdrift, 115 pay miles away. About thirty minutes into the flight one of our passengers stuck her head in the cockpit and said “We smell fuel”. My co-pilot got out of his seat, went in the back and came back up a moment later and said “Holy shit - it’s higher than a kite back there”. We turned around and headed back to YZF and naturally the wx had gone in the toilet. Hay River was the alternate but by now we could smell fuel in the cockpit. Something was seriously wrong, and I dared not head for our alternate across 120 miles of October lake because I didn’t know how much fuel we had access to.

Long story short we got in, but I busted minimums to do it.

Maybe these guys fucked up and maybe they didn’t, but it’ll come out. Until then, let us at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

[pelmet]

My response is born out of about 7000 hrs of Twin Otter time in essentially the same neighbourhood as this accident.

Twin Otter fuel gauges are famously reliable. As a rule they either work perfectly or not at all. I have no idea what happened here, but one night, many moons ago I departed Yellowknife for Snowdrift, 115 pay miles away. About thirty minutes into the flight one of our passengers stuck her head in the cockpit and said “We smell fuel”. My co-pilot got out of his seat, went in the back and came back up a moment later and said “Holy shit - it’s higher than a kite back there”. We turned around and headed back to YZF and naturally the wx had gone in the toilet. Hay River was the alternate but by now we could smell fuel in the cockpit. Something was seriously wrong, and I dared not head for our alternate across 120 miles of October lake because I didn’t know how much fuel we had access to.

Long story short we got in, but I busted minimums to do it.

Maybe these guys fucked up and maybe they didn’t, but it’ll come out. Until then, let us at least give them the benefit of the doubt.

It is an interesting scenario that reminds me of the ASRS publication where they sometimes give several scenarios, as written by the pilot reports, and then for each one say…….What Would You Do? Then in a separate section, they publish what the reporting pilot actually did(which the ASRS publication states is not necessarily what would have been the most appropriate action).

I was asking myself the same question in this situation and wondering if it would it help to unlatch the most forward of the rear doors and then open or partially open a cockpit window to see how it affects the fume situation.

[Spandau]

I remember that I briefly opened my window but that was a mistake. If I did it again I'd open the right hand rear door and see if that helped. It probably would have. After we landed I never even turned off the generators, I just pulled the fuel levers, left everything turned on and got out last through the back. I was afraid that turning something off might cause a spark.

The co-pilot and I were a little stoned on fuel fumes after we got out and got some fresh air, and when the engineers lifted up the floor one of them exclaimed "Let's make paper boats!" I forget the details but a connection between fuel cells had come apart. Which one I don't remember.

[pelmet]

I remember that I briefly opened my window but that was a mistake. If I did it again I'd open the right hand rear door and see if that helped. It probably would have.

Interesting. An airliner with its increasing curvature will definitely have a lower pressure outside the cockpit making an opening likely to bring smoke forward (like happened in the the UPS crash) but I thought a slab- sided Twin Otter might be different.

[co-joe]

I remember that I briefly opened my window but that was a mistake. If I did it again I'd open the right hand rear door and see if that helped. It probably would have.

Interesting. An airliner with its increasing curvature will definitely have a lower pressure outside the cockpit making an opening likely to bring smoke forward (like happened in the the UPS crash) but I thought a slab- sided Twin Otter might be different.

You say that but the 737 FCTM says you can open the window in flight if you depressurize the aircraft first, it goes on to say that wind isn't the issue, but that the noise in the flight deck will make communication difficult. It doesn't mention if it pulls air out or pushes it in so no idea what effect it would have on smoke or fumes. You'd have to be in a real bad situation to want to try it.

[pelmet]

I remember that I briefly opened my window but that was a mistake. If I did it again I'd open the right hand rear door and see if that helped. It probably would have.

Interesting. An airliner with its increasing curvature will definitely have a lower pressure outside the cockpit making an opening likely to bring smoke forward (like happened in the the UPS crash) but I thought a slab- sided Twin Otter might be different.

You say that but the 737 FCTM says you can open the window in flight if you depressurize the aircraft first, it goes on to say that wind isn't the issue, but that the noise in the flight deck will make communication difficult. It doesn't mention if it pulls air out or pushes it in so no idea what effect it would have on smoke or fumes. You'd have to be in a real bad situation to want to try it.

Good point. Varies by aircraft and location of opening. I think the 737 may be only for fumes sourced on the flight deck when opening the window to suck them out. Sorry about the thread drift. Back to the subject of the thread.

[co-joe]

Don't be sorry at all. It got me thinking about the aircraft I currently fly and this situation that may or may not have been caused by a fuel leak.

If you want an "I learned about flying from that" story, I have a relatable one. I flew a King Air out of YYC a good 10 years back and got rushed in departing, we had 4 aircraft departing at once, there were pax all over the ramp, and multiple fuel trucks. We piled into the machine, and fired up, got a clearance in a rush, got thrown ahead of bigger jets on the taxi, cleared immediate takeoff, and literally on climb through mid altitudes I realised we hadn't been fuelled. Brutal. Totally unacceptable.

Lots of emotions went through my head. How did I let this happen to me? I'm better than this. I have good skills, and good experience. I have a dedicated team of professionals behind me, how did they let me make this dumb mistake. You realise very quickly that there is only one person to blame here and it's you.

So here's a question for the Avcan hive mind; What were our options at that moment? give me a list. Tell me what you would have done had you found yourself in an aeroplane without IFR gas? I will say we were lucky enough to have enough gas to spend a few minutes thinking about the situation, we weren't on fumes, but we had a heck of a lot less gas than we wanted.

[Spandau]

So here's a question for the Avcan hive mind; What were our options at that moment? give me a list. Tell me what you would have done had you found yourself in an aeroplane without IFR gas? I will say we were lucky enough to have enough gas to spend a few minutes thinking about the situation, we weren't on fumes, but we had a heck of a lot less gas than we wanted.

I'll chip in:

There's a couple of ways to handle this. You could just up and confess "Ya, Departure, we forgot to refuel so we'd like to return" but there's going to be a lot more embarrassment to go around than just your own (but you don't count because you deserve it all, Stupid!) You'll embarrass the Company, and that might just kill a lot of business or cause people to rethink inking that big contract... so you can't really go this route.

You could blame it on Maintenance but that's not going to make you any friends, plus they'll make sure that the truth gets out so that everyone knows now a) that you're stupid because you took off without enough gas and b) you're a liar because you tried to blame Maintenance for it.

The one time it happened to me I was vfr on floats and the flaps weren't even up yet when we caught it. I said something unprintable and then we just did a quick circuit and went back to the dock. We were "highballing" on floats and it just got missed. That night I bought a couple of flats of beer for the waterbase fridge and that was the end of it.

If your situation happened to me I'd probably just tell Center that "we've been requested to return" and leave it at that. After landing I'd go see the Chief Pilot, confess that I'm stupid, double check the fuel caps and be on my way.

[pelmet]

Don't be sorry at all. It got me thinking about the aircraft I currently fly and this situation that may or may not have been caused by a fuel leak.

If you want an "I learned about flying from that" story, I have a relatable one. I flew a King Air out of YYC a good 10 years back and got rushed in departing, we had 4 aircraft departing at once, there were pax all over the ramp, and multiple fuel trucks. We piled into the machine, and fired up, got a clearance in a rush, got thrown ahead of bigger jets on the taxi, cleared immediate takeoff, and literally on climb through mid altitudes I realised we hadn't been fuelled. Brutal. Totally unacceptable.

Lots of emotions went through my head. How did I let this happen to me? I'm better than this. I have good skills, and good experience. I have a dedicated team of professionals behind me, how did they let me make this dumb mistake. You realise very quickly that there is only one person to blame here and it's you.

So here's a question for the Avcan hive mind; What were our options at that moment? give me a list. Tell me what you would have done had you found yourself in an aeroplane without IFR gas? I will say we were lucky enough to have enough gas to spend a few minutes thinking about the situation, we weren't on fumes, but we had a heck of a lot less gas than we wanted.

Not really enough info to make a decision such as the weather that day, possible route modifications, ability to make an enroute stop, etc.

We had a crew that didn't check their notams and went to a nearby destination expecting to fuel when no fuel was available. They were able to continue on and returned with VFR fuel.