Contrasting views on doing VO.

[altiplano]

VO subverts a united group on many levels.

If nobody did VO we would all enjoy about 10-15% increase in seniority.

Overall we would have a higher payroll to flight ops.

We would be a more united group.

Furloughs would be back already, if they ever went.

Why do you think the company likes VO?

It's not so RP or this YUL guy or the YVR LEC Chair and Vice or "bruh" can do 100 hour months every month and make a pile while most of the pilot group collected below the minimum.

It's because it's cheaper for them overall - fewer 777 CAs, fewer pilots, and a divided group.

And it's one thing when a clueless apathetic line guy takes VO, it's another thing when guys on the MEC or Scope committee Chairs are serial offenders. There's a difference.

Hypothetically when negotiating breaks down at some future contract opener, do you think it's still OK to do VO then?

Do you think there is any limit?

Do you think VO is a raise?

[aeronauticaldisaster]

D-E-T-A-T-C-H-E-D

I have a bit more knowledge of the training requirements to believe its that simple.

However, I guess we continue to punish the Corp for ACPA deficiencies and failings if makes us sleep better.

I see that you "know a thing or two about training"

But why do you keep circling back to training

We are talking about

P-A-Y-R-O-L-L

[Ratherbe]

On the new IADP you can select the mail icon and send the following:

“PASS ALL VO“

This way you won’t get a call from crew sked and they will see how much potential coverage they don’t have for VO.

As I said before this is about personal integrity.

[RippleRock]

VO subverts a united group on many levels.

If nobody did VO we would all enjoy about 10-15% increase in seniority.

Overall we would have a higher payroll to flight ops.

We would be a more united group.

Furloughs would be back already, if they ever went.

Why do you think the company likes VO?

It's not so RP or this YUL guy or the YVR LEC Chair and Vice or "bruh" can do 100 hour months every month and make a pile while most of the pilot group collected below the minimum.

It's because it's cheaper for them overall - fewer 777 CAs, fewer pilots, and a divided group.

And it's one thing when a clueless apathetic line guy takes VO, it's another thing when guys on the MEC or Scope committee Chairs are serial offenders. There's a difference.

Hypothetically when negotiating breaks down at some future contract opener, do you think it's still OK to do VO then?

Do you think there is any limit?

Do you think VO is a raise?

Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.

Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.

Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.

The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.


FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.

[Old fella]

RippleRock, I'm assuming you posted this opinion here instead of ACPF due to the anonymity afforded on this forum.

I am a furlough. The fact that guys are taking VO (elected union officials no less!) while my colleagues and I are struggling to put food on the table makes me sick. EI has run out. Savings are depleting quickly. Lines of credit are draining. Credit cards are maxxed out. Cars are sold. Get the picture yet?

Put me back on payroll and I honestly don't give a flying fack how much VO gets done, none of us would. That is the crux of your argument. If they can't train me until July, so be it. At least my bills are paid with my meager, reduced to 65 hours flat pay salary. Works out to basically the ACPA advance on the 1st, in case you're wondering how much that might be. That would have to last me the entire month too, but hey, it's better than the zero I'm getting at this point. Coincidentally, it's also about the same amount a 20 year skipper like you would make on a single VO turn.

So yes, by all means, VO your heart out. I'll wait here, patiently. All of us furloughs will.

As someone on the outside looking in and having a very brief association on a union executive years back, I find it inconceivable senior levels would avail themselves of lucrative overtime. It’s morally reprehensible in that guys/gals like yourself are outside suffering through the many things you noted while the very ones( Union Executive) are fattening their personal benefits(pay and pension). This has to be galling especially if you are been on the AC property for a few years.

[pumpkinpatch]

FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.

Yet AGAIN, you are completely missing the point. This has nothing to do with a discussion about VO/Draft in general. Under normal times I could care less. Fly as much as you want, fill your boots.

The point is, right now there's nearly 500 pilots at home without a paycheck. IT'S ABOUT SENDING A MESSAGE OF SOLIDARITY.

Something we severely lack, and the company knows it which is why they push the line with everything in our contract. Since you're on the other forum I'm sure you've seen the recent bullshit people have had to deal with regarding the new RAP system, best fit, and the most recent thread about being denied J for DH. These are all things the company does on purpose to push the limit of what they can get away with. And if you can't see that then you are extremely naive.

[737Maximilian]

Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close.

Again, what if the company uses this to justify slowing down recalls, given the new travel restrictions coming into effect? You're acting like recalling at the fastest pace is virtually guaranteed at this point.

The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned.

So we are in agreement, I guess?

[NotDirty!]

I am a furlough. The fact that guys are taking VO (acclaimed union officials no less!) while my colleagues and I are struggling to put food on the table makes me sick. EI has run out. Savings are depleting quickly. Lines of credit are draining. Credit cards are maxxed out. Cars are sold. Get the picture yet?

FIFY

[altiplano]

Naive is right.

It has to stop somewhere. And until more people say "enough is enough" and make a decision to stop it, stop giving in, stop extending, stop picking up the phone on your day off, stop fixing it for them, they will keep rolling over us.

They have people whose job it is just to @#$! us, see what they can push, see where they can nickel and dime, see what they can get away with, push the boundaries of what is normal.

From the DH issues to the millions in stolen per diems every year to the illegal vacation buybacks to scope violations to FRMS violations to installing tracking software into the apps they want us to use on our personal devices to pushing the spirit of the RAPS to lying crew schedulers and on and on and on... and we keep buying in for more... Are we all stupid?

We are governed by a zillion bulletins a day from just as many managers who unilaterally change our work conditions and then change their minds and change them again and then get a fucking award of excellence and a Caribbean cruise and their picture on the website.

Stop playing their games. Start flying your block and only your block. Stop extending. Start saying no every chance you get. Let them do their jobs and stop fixing their F-ups.

This is our airline, and the first step in taking it back is saying that we've had e-fucking-nuff. Not another inch, in fact we're taking back a mile and our self respect.

Until then... you, me, every member of this association, we're just a bunch of cunts.

[pumpkinpatch]

Naive is right.

It has to stop somewhere. And until more people say "enough is enough" and make a decision to stop it, stop giving in, stop extending, stop picking up the phone on your day off, stop fixing it for them, they will keep rolling over us.

They have people whose job it is just to @#$! us, see what they can push, see where they can nickel and dime, see what they can get away with, push the boundaries of what is normal.

From the DH issues to the millions in stolen per diems every year to the illegal vacation buybacks to scope violations to FRMS violations to installing tracking software into the apps they want us to use on our personal devices to pushing the spirit of the RAPS to lying crew schedulers and on and on and on... and we keep buying in for more... Are we all stupid?

We are governed by a zillion bulletins a day from just as many managers who unilaterally change our work conditions and then change their minds and change them again and then get a fucking award of excellence and a Caribbean cruise and their picture on the website.

Stop playing their games. Start flying your block and only your block. Stop extending. Start saying no every chance you get. Let them do their jobs and stop fixing their F-ups.

This is our airline, and the first step in taking it back is saying that we've had e-fucking-nuff. Not another inch, in fact we're taking back a mile and our self respect.

Until then... you, me, every member of this association, we're just a bunch of cunts.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I am a furlough. The fact that guys are taking VO (acclaimed union officials no less!) while my colleagues and I are struggling to put food on the table makes me sick. EI has run out. Savings are depleting quickly. Lines of credit are draining. Credit cards are maxxed out. Cars are sold. Get the picture yet?

FIFY

Real Klassy of you NotDirty. Yep, I spelled it with a capital K. Does it make you feel good to kick your brethren down when they are in the dumps?

[altiplano]

I am a furlough. The fact that guys are taking VO (acclaimed union officials no less!) while my colleagues and I are struggling to put food on the table makes me sick. EI has run out. Savings are depleting quickly. Lines of credit are draining. Credit cards are maxxed out. Cars are sold. Get the picture yet?

FIFY

Real Klassy of you NotDirty. Yep, I spelled it with a capital K. Does it make you feel good to kick your brethren down when they are in the dumps?

What's wrong with that?

Wasn't the most recent prick acclaimed?

Just shows the absurdity - the clowns running this place.

No wonder we're fucked.

[NotDirty!]

I am a furlough. The fact that guys are taking VO (acclaimed union officials no less!) while my colleagues and I are struggling to put food on the table makes me sick. EI has run out. Savings are depleting quickly. Lines of credit are draining. Credit cards are maxxed out. Cars are sold. Get the picture yet?

FIFY

Real Klassy of you NotDirty. Yep, I spelled it with a capital K. Does it make you feel good to kick your brethren down when they are in the dumps?

Not trying to kick anyone! Just pointing out the viscous circle of our present system. We complain about union leadership, and our inability to make meaningful gains. This leads to apathy and nobody steps up to run for open positions, thus we have MEC members acclaimed into their positions. Wash, rinse, repeat.

[TeePeeCreeper]

FIFY

Real Klassy of you NotDirty. Yep, I spelled it with a capital K. Does it make you feel good to kick your brethren down when they are in the dumps?

Not trying to kick anyone! Just pointing out the viscous circle of our present system. We complain about union leadership, and our inability to make meaningful gains. This leads to apathy and nobody steps up to run for open positions, thus we have MEC members acclaimed into their positions. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Fair enough. My apologies, I hadn’t read though your initial post with the wee bit of sarcasm you’d intended. I get your flesh reference now.

[NotDirty!]

I think maybe my use of the term “Fixed It For You” was poorly understood. I was not trying to dispute Gen. Postmaster’s message, simply pointing to the absurdity of our lack of choice in leadership candidates. I changed the one word in his quote from “elected” to “acclaimed”, made it bold and italic to stand out better, and wrote “FIFY” which is internetese for “Fixed It For You”. I suppose I could have just left his quote unedited, and written “you spelled ‘acclaimed’ wrong”, maybe that would have caused less confusion.

Anyways, I think we probably agree on a lot of things, sorry for any misunderstanding.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think maybe my use of the term “Fixed It For You” was poorly understood. I was not trying to dispute Gen. Postmaster’s message, simply pointing to the absurdity of our lack of choice in leadership candidates. I changed the one word in his quote from “elected” to “acclaimed”, made it bold and italic to stand out better, and wrote “FIFY” which is internetese for “Fixed It For You”. I suppose I could have just left his quote unedited, and written “you spelled ‘acclaimed’ wrong”, maybe that would have caused less confusion.

Anyways, I think we probably agree on a lot of things, sorry for any misunderstanding.

I knew exactly what you meant, don't worry.

Where'd RippleRock go? Took a sabbatical once his opinion went over like a lead balloon?

[unionism101]

He's on an overseas voluntary overtime trip!!

Was worried they would cancel the flight or worse yet call a trainer.

He is doing it for YOUR benefit

[altiplano]

Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.

Don't throw the rouge fallacy in to this. We aren't taking about rouge here, but we can on a separate post. We are talking about VO and the damage it does to us.

Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.

It isn't isolated. This is modus operandi at this company, has been for a long time. Whether good times or bad times it hurts us all. But right now, exponentially so for furloughed members. Our union representatives and structural components have shown a complete ineptitude on most matters. They are incompetent. It falls to us, the membership - we are the union - to say to each other and hold each other to account for what is acceptable behaviour in a labour movement. Don't pull a cop out and say it's the union's job to enforce and correct, we are the union.


Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.



See above. It's a cop out to say we're past the critical point and there's no guidance from the union and we're fractured anyway so until that's all fixed it's the Wild West and I'll do whatever I want... We are the Union. We are the movement. I hold my "Brothers" to account on what is acceptable. VO while we make concessions? While we have guys on the street? While the company fake leverages us for more? While they slip it in deeper? What's wrong with you?


The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.

Bullshit. Do you really think you're doing some noble deed keeping it going, getting then out of a bind? Keep telling yourself that... maybe you'll believe it someday. Everyone knows VO is me me me... I'm at the trough.



FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.


Absolutely. Hard cap on monthly hours to DBM. Draft/drop only for extra flying. Then we can focus on real wage gains across the board if people want to make more money.

[pumpkinpatch]

Working more is not a raise.

But sadly many people see it that way.

[altiplano]

The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.

A little more perspective for you... From our colleagues South of the border whom we should be emulating...

As we prepare, it is essential to understand that there are two sides at the table. We work for an extremely profitable company, and our contract should reflect our contribution to the company’s success. Our Collective Bargaining Agreement becomes part of the business plan for the corporation, and they will seek to minimize cost and increase their own flexibility. Remember the following when we are inevitably tempted towards distraction during bargaining:

Management wants you to do more work for less pay and benefits.

There are only two sides.

Get some perspective. Really the F up.

Realize management's motivations in their planning.

Which side are you on?

It's high time every Air Canada Pilot came to the realization that "they" ie "the company" are not on your side.

[RippleRock]

Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.

Don't throw the rouge fallacy in to this. We aren't taking about rouge here, but we can on a separate post. We are talking about VO and the damage it does to us.

Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.

It isn't isolated. This is modus operandi at this company, has been for a long time. Whether good times or bad times it hurts us all. But right now, exponentially so for furloughed members. Our union representatives and structural components have shown a complete ineptitude on most matters. They are incompetent. It falls to us, the membership - we are the union - to say to each other and hold each other to account for what is acceptable behaviour in a labour movement. Don't pull a cop out and say it's the union's job to enforce and correct, we are the union.


Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.



See above. It's a cop out to say we're past the critical point and there's no guidance from the union and we're fractured anyway so until that's all fixed it's the Wild West and I'll do whatever I want... We are the Union. We are the movement. I hold my "Brothers" to account on what is acceptable. VO while we make concessions? While we have guys on the street? While the company fake leverages us for more? While they slip it in deeper? What's wrong with you?


The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.

Bullshit. Do you really think you're doing some noble deed keeping it going, getting then out of a bind? Keep telling yourself that... maybe you'll believe it someday. Everyone knows VO is me me me... I'm at the trough.



FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.


Absolutely. Hard cap on monthly hours to DBM. Draft/drop only for extra flying. Then we can focus on real wage gains across the board if people want to make more money.

I have lost faith that the Membership will do anything to rectify past failings. ACPA remains, as does apathy. We are pointing our guns in slightly different directions. Mine is aimed solely on ACPA. They have taken every opportunity to fail us and have wholeheartedly embraced fracturing our solidarity.

If we had a decent contract, and actually enforced it, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

Our Membership has made an apathetic choice to dwell in ACPA's concessionary world of working more to substitute failing WACON. That's not me, and clearly not you, but here we are.

Now what?

[altiplano]

Agree 100%, but we voted to endorse Rouge by 84%. There is nothing that subverted seniority or unity more than that, and I'm hoping there never will be.

Don't throw the rouge fallacy in to this. We aren't taking about rouge here, but we can on a separate post. We are talking about VO and the damage it does to us.

Doing a bit of VO to take up some of the slack while we recover from Covid doesn't even come close. This is an isolated scenario. And, NO, I don't think doing VO for purposeful under-crewing should be allowed, nor should it be allowed during legal job action. It's our Unions job to enforce and correct things like this.

It isn't isolated. This is modus operandi at this company, has been for a long time. Whether good times or bad times it hurts us all. But right now, exponentially so for furloughed members. Our union representatives and structural components have shown a complete ineptitude on most matters. They are incompetent. It falls to us, the membership - we are the union - to say to each other and hold each other to account for what is acceptable behaviour in a labour movement. Don't pull a cop out and say it's the union's job to enforce and correct, we are the union.


Part of my point is that we have "dropped the ball" on unity long ago. Members continually vote YES whenever our MEC supports an initiative. Every time. This has made for a disjointed, fractured group that is somewhat bitter and resentful. Lashing out at the Company for our own failings is wrong. It isn't the Company's fault that we are where we are, it's our Unions soft handed approach to protecting our contract. They are offering little to no guidance on this topic......that speaks volumes. If you want them to chime in, perhaps ask for their position. My bet the answer is crickets.



See above. It's a cop out to say we're past the critical point and there's no guidance from the union and we're fractured anyway so until that's all fixed it's the Wild West and I'll do whatever I want... We are the Union. We are the movement. I hold my "Brothers" to account on what is acceptable. VO while we make concessions? While we have guys on the street? While the company fake leverages us for more? While they slip it in deeper? What's wrong with you?


The Company is in a bit of a bind right now, helping out a bit shouldn't be condoned. Just keep it in perspective with regard to Covid recovery.

Bullshit. Do you really think you're doing some noble deed keeping it going, getting then out of a bind? Keep telling yourself that... maybe you'll believe it someday. Everyone knows VO is me me me... I'm at the trough.



FWIW, If people hate the concept of VO that much, and there isn't any instance where its acceptable, maybe it should be written out of our next contract entirely.


Absolutely. Hard cap on monthly hours to DBM. Draft/drop only for extra flying. Then we can focus on real wage gains across the board if people want to make more money.

I have lost faith that the Membership will do anything to rectify past failings. ACPA remains, as does apathy. We are pointing our guns in slightly different directions. Mine is aimed solely on ACPA. They have taken every opportunity to fail us and have wholeheartedly embraced fracturing our solidarity.

If we had a decent contract, and actually enforced it, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Unfortunately, that's not reality.

Our Membership has made an apathetic choice to dwell in ACPA's concessionary world of working more to substitute failing WACON. That's not me, and clearly not you, but here we are.

Now what?

ACPA sucks, the membership (mostly) sucks, AC corporate overlords are dunking on us at will.

So why are you going along with it?

Stop feeding it.

Fly your block and say no every chance you get. When you realize the guy sitting next to you at work is at the trough don't be an enabler, tell him that's shortsighted bullshit.

[RippleRock]

I've agreed with almost everything you've ever posted. Thought someone was actually on the same wavelength.

At a 100% premium, VO is going to get done. They'll work down the list until its gone, if not they'll start back at the top.

Sounds like you've got everything figured out in your mind, but unless there's some form of revolution within the Membership, your solution will likely stay your thoughts.

Perhaps you'll go down as a martyr to your idealism. Few will know, fewer will care.

[altiplano]

"Someone junior will just do it if I don't take it "

That's a cop out. Do you believe in advancing our position or not? So act like it.

At the very least it should go back to the top as draft/drop.

If membership should ever get back to that, that's a good deal for everyone except the company, hours go at premium, maybe more days off, and more people can pick up more hours at premium and maybe get more days off, and on and on down the list.

I get it, it's hard for some people to say "no" and I could sure use some extra money right now too... but that's exactly what they want.

Believe me I've pondered writing this whole group off and going in it for only myself, everyone else be damned, and of course nobody will know that I always say "no" - but I know, and I know my integrity is intact and I don't want them to keep beating us. Do you? Because you're kicking an own goal every time you say "yes" when you could have said "no." We're getting our asses handed to us over and over, do you want it to stop?

Labour : Management is an adversarial relationship by definition. We all need to start thinking that way and acting accordingly.

The change has to start from somewhere, we need to hold each other to account.

[pumpkinpatch]

I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.

Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.