Contrasting views on doing VO.

[dumpsterfire]

I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.

Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.

Union Reps taking Overtime with furloughs?!

Dumpster Fire!

[altiplano]

ACPA membership democracy analysis.

https://youtu.be/QFgcqB8-AxE

[schnitzel2k3]

I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.

Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.

Union Reps taking Overtime with furloughs?!

Dumpster Fire!

And then allowing major concessions; Cargo at a discount, and the return of Rouge with mainline reserve regs. There are no steps forward for the AC group, just concenssions.

Too bad.

[mmm..bacon]

Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.

Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!

[NotDirty!]

I heard a story that at Delta, on initial line indoc there's the "unofficial" portion where the Captains go over all the union related stuff including telling the new hires that no one takes overtime at 1.5x or 2x. It's an understanding that everyone passes until it goes to 3x. And while they might not benefit right now from overtime, in a few years they will and the payoff will be worth it.

Imagine if we had that kind of unity at AC! Instead of everyone, including Union Reps, at the overtime trough sucking up as much money as they selfishly can. Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.

Rouge was pretty united in convincing most pilots not to list for VO (at 1.5x if I recall correctly), and only listing for draft (at 2.5x). Very few exceptions… and it worked well!

[imjustlurking]

Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.

Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!

Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.

[altiplano]

Even before Covid we had people who DID OVERTIME AT STRAIGHT PAY! Can you believe that? We are an embarrassment to the piloting profession with the selfishness AC pilots show compared to even other Canadian airline groups and the USA.

Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!

Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.

I don't think you have any understanding.

VO is/was straight pay until you're over 85 hours. Tons of guys crawling over one another to get it.

MMG on a block has nothing to do with it.

[imjustlurking]

Not, and unlikely to be, an AC pilot, so I don't have a dog in this fight.....but, what sort of fool works O/T at straight time? Really? Somebody needs a bar-of-soap-in-a-towel tune-up!

Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.

I don't think you have any understanding.

VO is/was straight pay until you're over 85 hours. Tons of guys crawling over one another to get it.

MMG on a block has nothing to do with it.

Sounds like a shitty contract to me.

[hithere]

Once one is off flat pay(4 years unless you upgrade to Captain) the pay at Air Canada(for days worked) is close to the best in Canada. Yes it is shit compared to legacy Carriers in the US, but that is not our reality right now. So if you have tenure at AC, then straight pay for overtime on a day that you have nothing else to do may be lucrative. I’m not trying to justify it, just providing insight

[pumpkinpatch]

Once one is off flat pay(4 years unless you upgrade to Captain) the pay at Air Canada(for days worked) is close to the best in Canada. Yes it is shit compared to legacy Carriers in the US, but that is not our reality right now. So if you have tenure at AC, then straight pay for overtime on a day that you have nothing else to do may be lucrative. I’m not trying to justify it, just providing insight

Being the best in Canada is a pretty fucking low bar. Plus, it's not just about money. We have shitty work rules compared to WestJet and Jazz now. Money isn't the end all.

[NotDirty!]

Well, at least it’s better than Swoop…

[altiplano]

Likely someone who is under block and is picking up extra shifts at regular pay on top of their MMG pay.

I don't think you have any understanding.

VO is/was straight pay until you're over 85 hours. Tons of guys crawling over one another to get it.

MMG on a block has nothing to do with it.

Sounds like a shitty contract to me.

You just run at the mouth. Fishing for god knows what on every topic you see. Go back to your telemarketing job.

[imjustlurking]

I don't think you have any understanding.

VO is/was straight pay until you're over 85 hours. Tons of guys crawling over one another to get it.

MMG on a block has nothing to do with it.

Sounds like a shitty contract to me.

You just run at the mouth. Fishing for god knows what on every topic you see. Go back to your telemarketing job.

Is that supposed to be an insult?

While you have been bitching about COVID for god knows how long, I have been helping those who want to get vaccinated with booking their appointments, getting their vaccine certificates, and answering their questions. Throw that in my face all you want, but I have been helping people while you have been beating off to a thirty year old picture of Mariah Carey.

[altiplano]

Yes! Mariah 1990!

LOL...

You're running on about things you don't know a thing about ad nauseam.

Just like your contribution in this thread is bullshit.

[Hangry]

LOL

[pumpkinpatch]

Imagine being so entitled that you do overtime when there's hundreds of your colleagues on the street without a paycheck.

"But the contract says I can"

You sound like a fool. And people won't forget, and names stay on lists forever. I hope none of you commute, because you're never getting a jumpseat on my plane.

[imjustlurking]

Imagine being so entitled that you do overtime when there's hundreds of your colleagues on the street without a paycheck.

"But the contract says I can"

You sound like a fool. And people won't forget, and names stay on lists forever. I hope none of you commute, because you're never getting a jumpseat on my plane.

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

As someone who was laid off for 20 months, I never wanted anyone to shoot themself in the foot in my name. If they are lucky enough to hold the seniority to maintain their position, then they should fulfill the duties of their position. I am able to find work for myself and I did find work. During COVID I ended up making more money than many of the people with higher seniority who were still flying.

What you are doing is looking for a reason to justify why you are angry. All that is doing is making you angrier. If you don't like your representation, run for a position and/or vote. If you don't like your company, look for a new one. You are in control of your life and it's you that gets to make the decision of which direction you are going to go.

[altiplano]

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

That statement is against the foundations of unionism.

We put ourselves at a disadvantage all the time for each other.

Low pay, sacrificed protections, through covid MOAs to save jobs apparently.

We asked senior guys to go early to save jobs apparently.

We voted in a 10% off cargo moa to hope to create jobs and bring back furloughs.

We voted in a concessionary TA with the promise of returning the surplus guys to active status.

I don't think they were good deals, but people disadvantaged themselves in the name of others.

The same goes for day to day when we each fly the line. That is where we really have an individual responsibility to each other, to our contract, to our profession.

Fly your block. Don't extend beyond the contract. Don't accept the company violating the contract. Don't accept the company's short sighted planning which affects every one us.

What you are doing is looking for a reason to justify why you are angry. All that is doing is making you angrier.

You confuse anger with asserting one self, expecting more, and advocating for the position we hold.

If you don't like your representation, run for a position and/or vote.

Who says people don't vote?

Since when do you have to run for a position to advocate for better among your colleagues?

If you don't like your company, look for a new one. You are in control of your life and it's you that gets to make the decision of which direction you are going to go.

And bravo, here's the biggest fallacy of them all... if you don't like it, just leave. So get along, accept everything as you're told, keep your mouth shut, or leave...

You call me toxic. I try to lift my colleagues, to advocate for better... yet you tell them to get lost if they think they can do better.

Fact is that we can do better. Look around at the Legacy Airline pay packages of the world and where are we?

I remember after FOS in 2012 Rovinescu justified the overreach by saying we were still in the top quartile of North American airline pilot pay. Not even 10 years later we are in the bottom quartile and have given up work conditions and scope during that time... and you, who just got hired here says "if you don't like it, leave."

[imjustlurking]

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

That statement is against the foundations of unionism.

We put ourselves at a disadvantage all the time for each other.

Low pay, sacrificed protections, through covid MOAs to save jobs apparently.

We asked senior guys to go early to save jobs apparently.

We voted in a 10% off cargo moa to hope to create jobs and bring back furloughs.

We voted in a concessionary TA with the promise of returning the surplus guys to active status.

I don't think they were good deals, but people disadvantaged themselves in the name of others.

The same goes for day to day when we each fly the line. That is where we really have an individual responsibility to each other, to our contract, to our profession.

Fly your block. Don't extend beyond the contract. Don't accept the company violating the contract. Don't accept the company's short sighted planning which affects every one us.

What you are doing is looking for a reason to justify why you are angry. All that is doing is making you angrier.

You confuse anger with asserting one self, expecting more, and advocating for the position we hold.

If you don't like your representation, run for a position and/or vote.

Who says people don't vote?

Since when do you have to run for a position to advocate for better among your colleagues?

If you don't like your company, look for a new one. You are in control of your life and it's you that gets to make the decision of which direction you are going to go.

And bravo, here's the biggest fallacy of them all... if you don't like it, just leave. So get along, accept everything as you're told, keep your mouth shut, or leave...

You call me toxic. I try to lift my colleagues, to advocate for better... yet you tell them to get lost if they think they can do better.

Fact is that we can do better. Look around at the Legacy Airline pay packages of the world and where are we?

I remember after FOS in 2012 Rovinescu justified the overreach by saying we were still in the top quartile of North American airline pilot pay. Not even 10 years later we are in the bottom quartile and have given up work conditions and scope during that time... and you, who just got hired here says "if you don't like it, leave."

That's a lot of words, but when it comes down to it, you do not like the company and you do not like the union. Your complaining on a public forum is not going to get you or your coworkers anywhere. There is nothing that 99% of users here can do, but what it does do is make you and your company look bad.

[altiplano]

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

That statement is against the foundations of unionism.

We put ourselves at a disadvantage all the time for each other.

Low pay, sacrificed protections, through covid MOAs to save jobs apparently.

We asked senior guys to go early to save jobs apparently.

We voted in a 10% off cargo moa to hope to create jobs and bring back furloughs.

We voted in a concessionary TA with the promise of returning the surplus guys to active status.

I don't think they were good deals, but people disadvantaged themselves in the name of others.

The same goes for day to day when we each fly the line. That is where we really have an individual responsibility to each other, to our contract, to our profession.

Fly your block. Don't extend beyond the contract. Don't accept the company violating the contract. Don't accept the company's short sighted planning which affects every one us.

What you are doing is looking for a reason to justify why you are angry. All that is doing is making you angrier.

You confuse anger with asserting one self, expecting more, and advocating for the position we hold.

If you don't like your representation, run for a position and/or vote.

Who says people don't vote?

Since when do you have to run for a position to advocate for better among your colleagues?

If you don't like your company, look for a new one. You are in control of your life and it's you that gets to make the decision of which direction you are going to go.

And bravo, here's the biggest fallacy of them all... if you don't like it, just leave. So get along, accept everything as you're told, keep your mouth shut, or leave...

You call me toxic. I try to lift my colleagues, to advocate for better... yet you tell them to get lost if they think they can do better.

Fact is that we can do better. Look around at the Legacy Airline pay packages of the world and where are we?

I remember after FOS in 2012 Rovinescu justified the overreach by saying we were still in the top quartile of North American airline pilot pay. Not even 10 years later we are in the bottom quartile and have given up work conditions and scope during that time... and you, who just got hired here says "if you don't like it, leave."

That's a lot of words, but when it comes down to it, you do not like the company and you do not like the union. Your complaining on a public forum is not going to get you or your coworkers anywhere. There is nothing that 99% of users here can do, but what it does do is make you and your company look bad.

That's not true.

Once again you have nothing, just more conjecture and false statements.

I like my company. I have a lot of belief in it, indeed I've staked my career on it.

That doesn't mean I have to roll over and take whatever I get without comment. That doesn't mean I have to like or believe management propaganda. That doesn't mean I have to support the obsequious climbers that make it into union positions.

I support my colleagues every chance I get. I support being united. ACPA presently divides us, the company divides us and people like you going along with it enable it further.

That this is a public forum is inconsequential, you think it looks bad? Well, you're a weak and naive fool who offers nothing as an alternative to achieving solidarity and gains. You know what looks bad, the embarrassing performance of our association and pilot group relative everyone else.

So I speak my mind, and maybe it gets one more colleague rethinking taking that draft or holding to the contract or rethinking that yes vote. Maybe one of the dozens of guys I've tried to help on here in threads and DMs sees there is an alternative to "shut up or quit." Maybe there's some solidarity gained that the current wannabes see when they come here, or with my colleagues at other airlines that see not everyone at AC is caving in. There is everything that the 99% can do.

[unionism101]

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

Is this comment idiotic?

Perhaps

But why would someone, who apparently is a part of a "union" come to such a conclusion?

I would say likely due to a cycle of weak union leadership with the contrast of good company leadership & management compounded by a culture of apathy & helplessness

The company has done an excellent job being able to dismantle a union collective mentality and promoting a every man for himself mantra.

"If I dont take it- some other wanker will..."

"I was laid off in 200 BC and back then there was tons of pilots taking OT, so now it's my turn..."

The company is constantly testing the collective will of the most technical and educated workforce at one of the largest corporations in the country.

When will this group realize it's value as a unified force?

[imjustlurking]

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

Is this comment idiotic?

Perhaps

But why would someone, who apparently is a part of a "union" come to such a conclusion?

I would say likely due to a cycle of weak union leadership with the contrast of good company leadership & management compounded by a culture of apathy & helplessness

The company has done an excellent job being able to dismantle a union collective mentality and promoting a every man for himself mantra.

"If I dont take it- some other wanker will..."

"I was laid off in 200 BC and back then there was tons of pilots taking OT, so now it's my turn..."

The company is constantly testing the collective will of the most technical and educated workforce at one of the largest corporations in the country.

When will this group realize it's value as a unified force?

I am not a member of ACPA, but I have been an employee at a company with shitty management and useless representation. My current union represents me and the rest of it's members well and the company is good (for the most part). You can have better, but the change might be bitter.

And FFS, if you don't like the union, work to change it. Moaning about it on AvCanada won't change anything.

[altiplano]

Imagine being so deluded to think that just because your employer has laid off coworkers that you have to put yourself at a disadvantage just to 'show them'.

Is this comment idiotic?

Perhaps

But why would someone, who apparently is a part of a "union" come to such a conclusion?

I would say likely due to a cycle of weak union leadership with the contrast of good company leadership & management compounded by a culture of apathy & helplessness

The company has done an excellent job being able to dismantle a union collective mentality and promoting a every man for himself mantra.

"If I dont take it- some other wanker will..."

"I was laid off in 200 BC and back then there was tons of pilots taking OT, so now it's my turn..."

The company is constantly testing the collective will of the most technical and educated workforce at one of the largest corporations in the country.

When will this group realize it's value as a unified force?

I am not a member of ACPA, but I have been an employee at a company with shitty management and useless representation. My current union represents me and the rest of it's members well and the company is good (for the most part). You can have better, but the change might be bitter.

And FFS, if you don't like the union, work to change it. Moaning about it on AvCanada won't change anything.

What? I thought you were an AC furlough... Why don't you mind your own business then? You have made some strong statements about things you know nothing of and have no stake in. WTF? Go away.

[imjustlurking]

WTF? Go away.

It's been a while since a 15 year old girl has tried to insult me.

[altiplano]

WTF? Go away.

It's been a while since a 15 year old girl has tried to insult me.

You are irrelevant and ignorant to the substance of the topic in this thread.

Your posts above are misinformation and then followed by nothing but insults. You are deliberately inserting yourself into discussions on a topic that you have no connection to, know nothing about, and have no contribution to make to.