New Bases

[flying4dollars]

What exactly is the point of criticizing anyone for taking a job at Flair? Because they may not be around in a few year? We all chose the wrong profession if thats the case. It's truly amazing to see the first reaction to more opportunity for pilots is a negative one. No wonder Canadian pilots are the worst paid and compensated around the world, only crab mentality to go around these parts.

My thoughts too. And like someone mentioned above, I bet some of those naysayers have applications in here. Go figure. We are our worst enemies and it's sad.

[Gregor]

Without any offense, I think some of the sentiment revolves around a ULCC airline and the inference that the wages will be even lower than other operators, (Even though it's the same job on the same equipment) in a country where even the majors are lower than anywhere else.

That being said, based on the published scale from Flair, on the captain side there isn't even a crossover point compared to AC or Transat. The top scale at Flair is less than 1st year capt AC/TS.
1st year skip at Flair is around the same as their 5 year FO.

But, it is expired, and looking forward to some major changes there with the new Alpa contract. They'll really need to attract and retain in order to retain crews for their planned expansion.

Everyone seems pretty happy at the company from what I've seen, and I sincerely hope they keep growing! I hope they give AC a big wake up, and consumers realize it's bloat and executive suite bonuses they've been paying while booking $1k round trips to YVR. I just hope the unions hold strong and don't let them cut pilot costs while execs are doling themselves 6 and 7 figure Xmas presents.

Best of luck guys (and gals!)

[Tbayer2021]

So the guys flying wide bodies across the Atlantic are angry that a small, relatively new company doesn't pay its pilots as much as they do. Yet they have no problem taking a 330/767/777/787 to Europe while the Captain doesn't even make what a senior FO at an American carrier makes?

I guess its always easier to look down and say they're the problem than looking in the mirror.

[Latitude]

So the guys flying wide bodies across the Atlantic are angry that a small, relatively new company doesn't pay its pilots as much as they do. Yet they have no problem taking a 330/767/777/787 to Europe while the Captain doesn't even make what a senior FO at an American carrier makes?

I guess its always easier to look down and say they're the problem than looking in the mirror.

Worthless comparison.... not even the same country, one has 10 time the economy and population of the other, and comparing 10 year seniority to junior pay scale

[Tbayer2021]

I said an AC or Transat captain doesn't even make as much as an FO at the American majors, not the other way around.

"Its another country" lol

Keep telling yourself that if it lets you sleep at night. Meanwhile your whole C-suite uses US companies as comparators for their compensation. I guess that mentality is exactly how they got away with paying you 10% less on the side of the company that was making money head over heals.

"Capture the flying" Hahahahah what an amazing line!

"We can compare to Fedex since we don't do door-to-door." A few days later, "We'd like to introduce RIVO"

It's honestly not fair, you guys are so out of your own league that management must feel like dealing with their pilots is like clubbing baby seals.

So the guys flying wide bodies across the Atlantic are angry that a small, relatively new company doesn't pay its pilots as much as they do. Yet they have no problem taking a 330/767/777/787 to Europe while the Captain doesn't even make what a senior FO at an American carrier makes?

I guess its always easier to look down and say they're the problem than looking in the mirror.

Worthless comparison.... not even the same country, one has 10 time the economy and population of the other, and comparing 10 year seniority to junior pay scale

[Latitude]

I said an AC or Transat captain doesn't even make as much as an FO at the American majors, not the other way around.

"Its another country" lol

Keep telling yourself that if it lets you sleep at night. Meanwhile your whole C-suite uses US companies as comparators for their compensation. I guess that mentality is exactly how they got away with paying you 10% less on the side of the company that was making money head over heals.

"Capture the flying" Hahahahah what an amazing line!

"We can compare to Fedex since we don't do door-to-door." A few days later, "We'd like to introduce RIVO"

It's honestly not fair, you guys are so out of your own league that management must feel like dealing with their pilots is like clubbing baby seals.

So the guys flying wide bodies across the Atlantic are angry that a small, relatively new company doesn't pay its pilots as much as they do. Yet they have no problem taking a 330/767/777/787 to Europe while the Captain doesn't even make what a senior FO at an American carrier makes?

I guess its always easier to look down and say they're the problem than looking in the mirror.

Worthless comparison.... not even the same country, one has 10 time the economy and population of the other, and comparing 10 year seniority to junior pay scale

Keep crying. Fact is, AC and TS pilots are the most paid in the country, not Flair. I guess it's even more laughable that one can get away with paying a top pay scale FO 100K on a 737.

[Tbayer2021]

I said an AC or Transat captain doesn't even make as much as an FO at the American majors, not the other way around.

"Its another country" lol

Keep telling yourself that if it lets you sleep at night. Meanwhile your whole C-suite uses US companies as comparators for their compensation. I guess that mentality is exactly how they got away with paying you 10% less on the side of the company that was making money head over heals.

"Capture the flying" Hahahahah what an amazing line!

"We can compare to Fedex since we don't do door-to-door." A few days later, "We'd like to introduce RIVO"

It's honestly not fair, you guys are so out of your own league that management must feel like dealing with their pilots is like clubbing baby seals.

Worthless comparison.... not even the same country, one has 10 time the economy and population of the other, and comparing 10 year seniority to junior pay scale

Keep crying. Fact is, AC and TS pilots are the most paid in the country, not Flair. I guess it's even more laughable that one can get away with paying a top pay scale FO 100K on a 737.

I guess its about as laughable as getting people to go on 4 years of flat pay at the only legacy airline in the country, all while making concessions on multiple other fronts over the last few years.

That hill you're fighting for, about being the highest paid, interestingly keeps getting smaller and smaller every year. As other companies make considerable gains and you guys only seem to manage to give things up.

[DanWEC]

Quite the thread drift, but it is very telling that all the salaries at AC are comparable to other corporations worldwide.... except for flight crew.

Then, in a competitive marketplace, other companies don't want or need to increase salaries higher than the existing peak in order to stay competitive. This keeps all the wages in the sector lower than the peak benchmark. So really, we can thank AC and whatever the F ACPA is for the conditions nationwide.

Transat's last contract is nipping at the heels of AC but unfortunately it's paused right now. Sunwing got some big gains too but not as much. Really looking forward to seeing Flair's new contract.

One major advantage Flair has, is while they don't have robust commuting benefits, their point-to-point model parks planes and crews in many cities, so a pilot will have much more choice of where to live other than the typical 4 major bases- in 2 hyper expensive cities and 2 freezing cold ones, and wouldn't have to commute. To me, that's huge.

[Hangry]

Yes. It’s totally AC’s fault some Swoop skipper is willing to fly for less than 100k.

[flying4dollars]

Without any offense, I think some of the sentiment revolves around a ULCC airline and the inference that the wages will be even lower than other operators, (Even though it's the same job on the same equipment) in a country where even the majors are lower than anywhere else.

That being said, based on the published scale from Flair, on the captain side there isn't even a crossover point compared to AC or Transat. The top scale at Flair is less than 1st year capt AC/TS.
1st year skip at Flair is around the same as their 5 year FO.

But, it is expired, and looking forward to some major changes there with the new Alpa contract. They'll really need to attract and retain in order to retain crews for their planned expansion.

Everyone seems pretty happy at the company from what I've seen, and I sincerely hope they keep growing! I hope they give AC a big wake up, and consumers realize it's bloat and executive suite bonuses they've been paying while booking $1k round trips to YVR. I just hope the unions hold strong and don't let them cut pilot costs while execs are doling themselves 6 and 7 figure Xmas presents.

Best of luck guys (and gals!)

The pay disparity is definitely a problem that even the company now recognizes. I suspect there will be some significant improvements coming, namely to the captain salary here. I think that should be resolved in the coming months.

[DanWEC]

Yes. It’s totally AC’s fault some Swoop skipper is willing to fly for less than 100k.

If you understand economics and mobility, surprisingly, it is.

First, read my previous statement regarding labour costs and the benchmark salary of competitors.
Next, understand that the company with the benchmark salary has locked up a labour supply funnel by way of flow from operators who also have depressed pay. This culminates in another 4 more years of below standard pay, ostensibly for a bigger payday.

This severely limits the pool of applicants to only those willing and able to go through the years-long process. With the exception of 2019 hiring, this excludes many experienced professionals in their 30's and 40's. It effectively reduces the obtainable reward.

By virtue of this, it opens the door for competitors to pay 'just enough" to keep qualified guys from going to AC because the 15-20 year cumulative earnings are a wash, but you'll get substantially more compensation up front as a DEC. If you're not a linear thinker this gives you more opportunity to invest, etc.

If we had a more open market with several pathways to the benchmark salary this wouldn't be the case. So, as you can see, it is AC's structure that strongly contributes to the labour economics of pilots.

[Hangry]

Yes everything bad in Canadian aviation is AC’s fault.

Blah blah blah

You went to Sunwing because AC doesn’t pay enough.

Pilots are still forced to work the docks cause of AC. See how silly that’s sounds?

[Hangry]

Also you are insanely out of touch if you think it takes 15-20 years to start earning more at AC than elsewhere.

Maybe stop pontificating.

[DanWEC]

Good talk. Only the majority of points missed and misread. No point in continuing.

Cheers.

The pay disparity is definitely a problem that even the company now recognizes. I suspect there will be some significant improvements coming, namely to the captain salary here. I think that should be resolved in the coming months.

Great news!

[FICU]

Transat's last contract is nipping at the heels of AC but unfortunately it's paused right now. Sunwing got some big gains too but not as much. Really looking forward to seeing Flair's new contract.

Might want to check out the new 5T CBA. Big gains all around.