How old is to old ?

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Malfunction
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How old is to old ?

Post by Malfunction »

Realistic age that is to old to start at AC. 35? 40?... any thoughts.
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wordstwice
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by wordstwice »

You can be a lot older than that. Just have to temper your expectations based on your age. For example, want to be captain on a B777? Or are you happy left seat on an A220? The time it takes to climb the seniority ladder, especially now during/after COVID will dampen your career if you start at a later age but that doesn’t mean you can’t still work there!!!

I have a few friends that started at AC in their high 40’s and I’m sure many people started well above that.
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dialdriver
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by dialdriver »

Malfunction wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:46 pm Realistic age that is to old to start at AC. 35? 40?... any thoughts.
65
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

Malfunction wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 6:46 pm Realistic age that is to old to start at AC. 35? 40?... any thoughts.
Good question. It all depends what you have to give up (job wise / lifestyle wise) and what your expectations are.

1. Do you work for an airline and have decent seniority? Are you willing to give that up? Are you willing to go "bottom of the list"?
2. Are you going to drop or increase in pay?
3. How long do you want to work for? Do you want to go to 65 (y.o)?
4. Do you aspire to be a WB captain?

I was faced with the same decision in the summer of 2019. I was very split if I should go to Mainline or stay at Jazz. I struggled with that decision for months. Eventually I sat down with my wife and literally wrote the PROs and CONs. Given my situation (age, family situation, seniority, etc) I decided that I would be better off staying where I am. (As a side note, if I would have gone, I would've been laid off during the pandemic, not that one can plan their life around these extreme events)

It's hard to say. Even now I sometimes ask myself if I made the right decision and considering my future plans, I think I did. The desire to fly internationally (Europe) is always there and it was my #1 reason to go to mainline. Otherwise, I'm quite happy where I am. It's up to you and your family to decide that.
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Malfunction
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by Malfunction »

Thanks for the reply.
I am in very simular situation as yourself. Work at jazz and enjoy it very much in the left seat. I would like to fly a bigger jet but I'm trying to wrap my head around being 33 yrs old and bottom of the list again making FO wages.
Can anyone comment on the quality of life being a new employee ? Days off? Take home pay for first yr?
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jpilot77
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by jpilot77 »

It all depends on what machine you’re on, when I got hired I was a RP for the first 8 months. At first I was a a little disappointed that I wouldn’t really be flying. But it actually was a great experience. I generally worked 9-10 days a month flew to places I’d never though I’d go to and flew with some great crews (who were great to me). Life on the narrow body side is pretty standard airline lifestyle. AC is almost 2 different airlines.
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a220hereicome
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by a220hereicome »

Malfunction wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:25 am Thanks for the reply.
I am in very simular situation as yourself. Work at jazz and enjoy it very much in the left seat. I would like to fly a bigger jet but I'm trying to wrap my head around being 33 yrs old and bottom of the list again making FO wages.
Can anyone comment on the quality of life being a new employee ? Days off? Take home pay for first yr?
33 years old? You’re still young!

The average age of new hires over the last ten years is about 35, so you’re already ahead of the curve. Age and seniority are a consideration for some who are on the fence (“I’ll never get the left seat on xxx airplane”), but IMHO shouldn’t be for you at your age.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Do those of you at AC foresee quick upgrades returning in the next few years? I think a lot of us in our mid 30s and older have families so the length of time on flat pay can really influence the decision whether to switch over to AC.
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Malfunction
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by Malfunction »

Great question^
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

Malfunction wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:25 am Thanks for the reply.
I am in very simular situation as yourself. Work at jazz and enjoy it very much in the left seat. I would like to fly a bigger jet but I'm trying to wrap my head around being 33 yrs old and bottom of the list again making FO wages.
Can anyone comment on the quality of life being a new employee ? Days off? Take home pay for first yr?
33 is young. You will have plenty of time to progress in your career. Are you married? Do you have kids? Do you care going BOTL at mainline and having to put up with that for 4 - 5 years. If the answer is "NO" (to kids / married) and "YES" (with having no problem with BOTL) then I would personally go.

I am older than you and I have a young child at home. I don't want to miss my kid's best years because I'm stuck on a crap schedule. To be honest, I would be more likely to go to Mainline once my child is grown up, but then it becomes a question of "Do I want to give up good seniority and pay to go F/O or R/P"? Probably not. Look around you. Lots of guys retiring from Jazz. It's a good place to spend your career. Lots of pros and of course some cons. Nowhere is perfect, but it's pretty damn good here. (I think at least).

Most likely I'll stay with Jazz till retirement, unless something really amazing comes my way... (My "amazing" is very different than maybe "your" amazing), and most certainly I will not find it in Canada.

Good luck and if you do decide to go, you better make that decision quick. The sooner your go the better your seniority number will be. It's the way things work when you have a unionized airline.
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altiplano
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by altiplano »

As stated, average age of new hires over the years is 35.

30 year career and conventional thought is that you'd retire a WB Captain. Lots of guys are happy to retire as 30 year senior A320 Captains though.

Can you handle the fixed rate pay? Depends on your spending and if you want to take the short term hit. Pay goes to ~65/70/80/90 this year.

If quick upgrades return and get rolling like they were in '19 will 100% be a function of what the world after covid will be like and will people in this country get there heads out of the sand and get travelling.

That said, I still think we're short today. I think even if we didn't lay off we'd be short today. We were short 1000 guys at the start of 2020, and we've retired a few hundred since then. Even if we don't see previous levels/rates return soon things will still move on the list.

Good luck.
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NotDirty!
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by NotDirty! »

There have been lots of pilots hired in their 40s and some into their 50s.

So maybe it is safe to say that under 3 is two old, up to 50 is from old, 50-65 is to old, and 65+ is too old.
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2nine9two
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by 2nine9two »

I feel like the answer to this question changes depending on the demographics of the day

If you were hired in the late 90's when AC had 2000 pilots and and was ramping up to start really pushing into Asia then you could get away with being 40 or 45 and you would have still rocketed up the list to WB CA for your retirement party.

Move that question to 2022. 4100 ish pilots and more than half of those pilots were hired in the last 6-7 years and they are mostly 33 and younger. now the answer to the how old is too old question is wayyyy more difficult.
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RoAF-Mig21
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by RoAF-Mig21 »

2nine9two wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:53 am I feel like the answer to this question changes depending on the demographics of the day

If you were hired in the late 90's when AC had 2000 pilots and and was ramping up to start really pushing into Asia then you could get away with being 40 or 45 and you would have still rocketed up the list to WB CA for your retirement party.

Move that question to 2022. 4100 ish pilots and more than half of those pilots were hired in the last 6-7 years and they are mostly 33 and younger. now the answer to the how old is too old question is wayyyy more difficult.
Good point and I agree with you. If you're okay being a senior F/O for the rest of your career, you should do okay. I mean even F/O pay is decent once you get 10 years in. Of course, like most families in Canada, one needs to have both members working...
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altiplano
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by altiplano »

33 years old does not make for a "senior FO for the rest of your career."

That makes for a 30+ year career and retiring as a Captain on a 787 or 777 or 330, or whatever the next equipment is.

40 or 50 even doesn't make for "senior FO for the rest of your career" unless that's what you want.

Junior NB CA on the last bid was a seniority number south of 3100 with only 3400 active pilots and a published requirement for over 4000. Retirement numbers will pick up again in the +100/year range.

There will be lots of choice and you don't need a 40 year career here to get it.

Also more than 1/2 the pilots here weren't hired in the last 6 or 7 years... A lot no doubt, but not more than half.

You can analyze it all you want I guess... but it comes down to deciding if you want to do the job or are you happy with where you are and wondering what if.
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by jpilot77 »

Also a significant amount of the pilots hired in the last 7 years weren’t all 25-35 some are older (a decent number of the first PML from Jazz). These pilots aren’t going to be on the property for 30 years.
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by Inverted2 »

All depends on your current employment. Is your company relatively stable? Do you like your job there? Can you afford a pay cut for a while? Could you stay afloat if you were laid off for 2 years like some currently? How is your current seniority?

If you’re under 40 go for it. If you’re in your low 40s go if it’s your dream. Older than that? Your call.
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by Admiral Benson »

Does anyone have the actual numbers to share?

2000 in the last 7 years is roughly 280 something a year or less than 25 per month since January 2015.

I feel like that's probably pretty close to the actual numbers
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rudder
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by rudder »

Admiral Benson wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:14 pm Does anyone have the actual numbers to share?

2000 in the last 7 years is roughly 280 something a year or less than 25 per month since January 2015.

I feel like that's probably pretty close to the actual numbers
March 2015 DOH is approx sen#2370 on January 2022 list.

Nobody hired since March 2020 so that would be approx 2000 in 5 years. 400/year avg.
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Raymond Hall
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Re: How old is to old ?

Post by Raymond Hall »

'To' old or 'Too' old. It's probably not about age, in your case.

Having said that, age discrimination is illegal in Canada, as Air Canada painfully found out in refusing to hire pilots on the basis of age:

https://www.canlii.org/en/ca/fca/doc/19 ... pletePos=1
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