DEC Westjet Swoop

[JBI]

Good thing there won’t be much flow for a while because if he is the new standard of Encore I’d hate being a Westjet pilot and flying with any of them.Encore seems like a bunch of highschool kids at a dead end job.

IF justlurking is an Encore pilot and not just a troll I can assure you that his/her views on Swoop are not held by the majority of Encore pilots.

[imjustlurking]

Good thing there won’t be much flow for a while because if he is the new standard of Encore I’d hate being a Westjet pilot and flying with any of them.Encore seems like a bunch of highschool kids at a dead end job.

IF justlurking is an Encore pilot and not just a troll I can assure you that his/her views on Swoop are not held by the majority of Encore pilots.

From what I have seen, you are correct. Many of the people who are talking about this subject have negative opinions regarding Swoop.

I couldn't tell you what the majority believe as I am not privy to any survey that asked the pilot group about it.

What I can tell you is that, no I am not trolling, I do actually believe what I am saying and I am not saying it to upset others. It's a shame that so many people who disagree with me discount me as a troll instead of someone who, just like themselves, is entitled to hold an opinion based on what they see and have experienced.

Let me explain why I am not angry and cursing the company for creating Swoop.

Swoop was created (contrary to many beliefs) to compete with other low cost carriers that were starting. Yes, salaries are lower than WS, and that is to be expected when a new airline is created. I believe that WS/WO MEC should be setting out the expectation to the company that WS and WO will have the same pay scale and working conditions between the two companies as they operate the same aircraft on the same flights.

The opinions I have seen here seem to be that Swoop is bad because it undercuts pilots WaWCons. I agree, that aspect is not appropriate. When I offer the solution that Swoop should have the same (not similar) WaWCons, I am met with opposition stating that Swoop should be abolished and not brought up to a standard that is appropriate. As employees under the WestJet parent company, we should be happy that the company is doing well at expanding their market share across more consumer groups. Again, I am not saying that we should accept substandard WaWCons (which are already standard in Canadian Aviation).

tl;dr: I am not trolling. I believe that WO pilots need to be given the same WaWCons as WS and that all pilots under the umbrella should not be calling for Swoop's legs to be shot out from under it.

[Maritimer]

disregard

[Maritimer]

Good thing there won’t be much flow for a while because if he is the new standard of Encore I’d hate being a Westjet pilot and flying with any of them.Encore seems like a bunch of highschool kids at a dead end job.

IF justlurking is an Encore pilot and not just a troll I can assure you that his/her views on Swoop are not held by the majority of Encore pilots.

From what I have seen, you are correct. Many of the people who are talking about this subject have negative opinions regarding Swoop.

I couldn't tell you what the majority believe as I am not privy to any survey that asked the pilot group about it.

What I can tell you is that, no I am not trolling, I do actually believe what I am saying and I am not saying it to upset others. It's a shame that so many people who disagree with me discount me as a troll instead of someone who, just like themselves, is entitled to hold an opinion based on what they see and have experienced.

Let me explain why I am not angry and cursing the company for creating Swoop.

Swoop was created (contrary to many beliefs) to compete with other low cost carriers that were starting. Yes, salaries are lower than WS, and that is to be expected when a new airline is created. I believe that WS/WO MEC should be setting out the expectation to the company that WS and WO will have the same pay scale and working conditions between the two companies as they operate the same aircraft on the same flights.

The opinions I have seen here seem to be that Swoop is bad because it undercuts pilots WaWCons. I agree, that aspect is not appropriate. When I offer the solution that Swoop should have the same (not similar) WaWCons, I am met with opposition stating that Swoop should be abolished and not brought up to a standard that is appropriate. As employees under the WestJet parent company, we should be happy that the company is doing well at expanding their market share across more consumer groups. Again, I am not saying that we should accept substandard WaWCons (which are already standard in Canadian Aviation).

tl;dr: I am not trolling. I believe that WO pilots need to be given the same WaWCons as WS and that all pilots under the umbrella should not be calling for Swoop's legs to be shot out from under it.

Dude/Dudette, look, first of all we all know why Swoop was created, there's no argument there, but here is some history on the subject incase you weren't around here during it's inception.

When Swoop was announced the WJ pilot group fought hard to secure that flying for our pilots. Company tried to get us to go to Swoop and do their flying for their abysmal WAWCON. I don't think a single WJ pilot went. Company then hired from the outside, things got messy, fighting, blacklist blah blah blah. The union filed with the CIRB (I think it was) to secure the Swoop flying for WJ pilots. CIRB ruled in our favour and stated that Swoop pilots would be on our list. We thought we had a win, our list, our guys, our contract, right? Wrong. Company argued (and won in arbitration) that a separate Swoop LOU be created to basically completely undermine our entire contract and everything that we have fought for.

Now, fast forward about 4 years to where we have stress tested our CA multiple times in multiple different areas and have found MAJOR deficiencies through out the document. There are literally hundreds, if not more, items that need to be addressed during negotiations for this upcoming CA.

The opposition that you receive to your opinion that Swoop should be brought up to WJ WAWCON is warranted for numerous reasons; one being that we fought hard and tried to do that once already and had it thrown back in our face, not to mention that literally everything we have been told about Swoop from management has been a complete lie regarding cannibalizing WJ routes, routes overall, airports serviced, A/C, bases, and the list goes on. Another is that fact that these are negotiations, not Christmas. As I mentioned above, there are so many things to fix at WJ and with only so much (little) negotiation capital to use in the fight, I most certainly do not want to use it on making Swoop better before fixing WJ. Most folks are not against bringing Swoop up to WJ WAWCON, quite the contrary, but I do think that most are against doing it at the expense of WJ and that's where my comment in my previous post comes from.

[lostaviator]

What worries me is that many fall back on the “they can only grow to 30” argument. Scope is embedded in CA1 which expires very soon. I can already hear their voices in arbitration “we need more swoop planes to recover from covid”. And with a wave of Kaplan’s magic wand, poof! More pink planes. I hope I’m wrong.

[imjustlurking]

What worries me is that many fall back on the “they can only grow to 30” argument. Scope is embedded in CA1 which expires very soon. I can already hear their voices in arbitration “we need more swoop planes to recover from covid”. And with a wave of Kaplan’s magic wand, poof! More pink planes. I hope I’m wrong.

Imagine this: not having to care about how many tails the company has painted pink vs blue because the pilots will have the same WaWCons.

Tell your MEC what you want and don't assume that they already know.

[PeterParker]

I do not work for the WestJet umbrella of companies, but I seriously don't see why everyone here thinks that there is a set amount of things that can be negotiated at the next CA arbitration? If you only keep plugging the holes and think that pay can be negotiated in another 3-4 years at the next CA arbitration, you are mistaken, because there will be more holes that the company finds or makes just to keep you busy all over again.

We need to wake up as a collective and realize that everyone that becomes a pilot and looks to flying for an airline has spent tens of thousands of dollars and is in a lot of debt trying to achieve our dreams. After going through the grind of flight school, working terrible jobs for scummy employers for a few years, then moving to the most expensive cities in the world for next to nothing pay is never going to get you ahead in your finances. You can live a life of poverty until the end or if you are lucky, hope to have a spouse or family who can support you until you gain the seniority after 10-15 years of aviation and then after all that, you start at the same place someone who graduated with you and went to work a trade and built up financially over the past 10-15 years themselves.

This does not include all the time you lose being away on the road for 3-4 days at a time and more if you are a commuter. Even worse if your spouse is also an airline pilot. The cost for this is very much immeasurable...

[Maritimer]

What worries me is that many fall back on the “they can only grow to 30” argument. Scope is embedded in CA1 which expires very soon. I can already hear their voices in arbitration “we need more swoop planes to recover from covid”. And with a wave of Kaplan’s magic wand, poof! More pink planes. I hope I’m wrong.

Imagine this: not having to care about how many tails the company has painted pink vs blue because the pilots will have the same WaWCons.

Tell your MEC what you want and don't assume that they already know.

We simply do not want what YOU want.

[imjustlurking]

What worries me is that many fall back on the “they can only grow to 30” argument. Scope is embedded in CA1 which expires very soon. I can already hear their voices in arbitration “we need more swoop planes to recover from covid”. And with a wave of Kaplan’s magic wand, poof! More pink planes. I hope I’m wrong.

Imagine this: not having to care about how many tails the company has painted pink vs blue because the pilots will have the same WaWCons.

Tell your MEC what you want and don't assume that they already know.

We simply do not want what YOU want.

That's fine. I recognize that we all have our own desires and sometimes they will align and sometimes not.

My statement that you need to explicitly tell your MEC stands. I strongly believe that the majority isn't heard; only the vocal majority. Make yourself heard to your MEC and your LOM.

[YC87DRVR]

Imagine this: not having to care about how many tails the company has painted pink vs blue because the pilots will have the same WaWCons.

Tell your MEC what you want and don't assume that they already know.

We simply do not want what YOU want.

That's fine. I recognize that we all have our own desires and sometimes they will align and sometimes not.

My statement that you need to explicitly tell your MEC stands. I strongly believe that the majority isn't heard; only the vocal majority. Make yourself heard to your MEC and your LOM.

Man, give it up. Swoop will never have the same WAWCON’s as WJ, ever. You accepted the lowest paying 37 position in the world, nobody is going to help change that for you.

[Maritimer]

Imagine this: not having to care about how many tails the company has painted pink vs blue because the pilots will have the same WaWCons.

Tell your MEC what you want and don't assume that they already know.

We simply do not want what YOU want.

That's fine. I recognize that we all have our own desires and sometimes they will align and sometimes not.

My statement that you need to explicitly tell your MEC stands. I strongly believe that the majority isn't heard; only the vocal majority. Make yourself heard to your MEC and your LOM.

Our Line Ops Managers? As in our Chief Pilots? Now I know you’re a troll.

Have a nice day.

[imjustlurking]

We simply do not want what YOU want.

That's fine. I recognize that we all have our own desires and sometimes they will align and sometimes not.

My statement that you need to explicitly tell your MEC stands. I strongly believe that the majority isn't heard; only the vocal majority. Make yourself heard to your MEC and your LOM.

Our Line Ops Managers? As in our Chief Pilots? Now I know you’re a troll.

Have a nice day.

Your LOM and MEC are the two groups that you should be griping to. Bitching on AvCanada and then expecting things to change is as dumb as bitching to your friends about the government and expecting change.

[Maritimer]

That's fine. I recognize that we all have our own desires and sometimes they will align and sometimes not.

My statement that you need to explicitly tell your MEC stands. I strongly believe that the majority isn't heard; only the vocal majority. Make yourself heard to your MEC and your LOM.

Our Line Ops Managers? As in our Chief Pilots? Now I know you’re a troll.

Have a nice day.

Your LOM and MEC are the two groups that you should be griping to. Bitching on AvCanada and then expecting things to change is as dumb as bitching to your friends about the government and expecting change.

I believe the MEC is fully aware, as you’ve been told in this thread multiple times, you just don’t like it. LOMs have zero effect on our contract. That would be like bitching to my dog about my kids.

BTW no one is bitching here but you because you don’t like the truth you are being told.

[imjustlurking]

Our Line Ops Managers? As in our Chief Pilots? Now I know you’re a troll.

Have a nice day.

Your LOM and MEC are the two groups that you should be griping to. Bitching on AvCanada and then expecting things to change is as dumb as bitching to your friends about the government and expecting change.

I believe the MEC is fully aware, as you’ve been told in this thread multiple times, you just don’t like it. LOMs have zero effect on our contract. That would be like bitching to my dog about my kids.

BTW no one is bitching here but you because you don’t like the truth you are being told.

Great, don't tell your manager or your representative what you want in the next contract.

[Maritimer]

Your LOM and MEC are the two groups that you should be griping to. Bitching on AvCanada and then expecting things to change is as dumb as bitching to your friends about the government and expecting change.

I believe the MEC is fully aware, as you’ve been told in this thread multiple times, you just don’t like it. LOMs have zero effect on our contract. That would be like bitching to my dog about my kids.

BTW no one is bitching here but you because you don’t like the truth you are being told.

Great, don't tell your manager or your representative what you want in the next contract.

Who needs to know, knows. As you’ve been told.

Have a nice day, kid

[imjustlurking]

I believe the MEC is fully aware, as you’ve been told in this thread multiple times, you just don’t like it. LOMs have zero effect on our contract. That would be like bitching to my dog about my kids.

BTW no one is bitching here but you because you don’t like the truth you are being told.

Great, don't tell your manager or your representative what you want in the next contract.

Who needs to know, knows. As you’ve been told.

Have a nice day, kid

Nice, a boomer calling me a kid. The conversation has progressed.

[Mach1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers

Since the last Baby Boomer was born in 1964, that would make that person 58 at the youngest. The more you know...

If you are going to throw around derogatory terms, you should strive for at least a modicum of accuracy. Pretty good odds it was a Gen X who called you a kid.

Great, don't tell your manager or your representative what you want in the next contract.

What if the MEC/LEC has been told what a person wants but it is different than what you want?

Management has dropped the hook in the water and you are biting. Ask the guys at Air Canada about how much bargaining effort was spent on Rouge wages and working conditions and how much the main line wages and working conditions increased during that same period.

Collectively, if we really want to improve wages and working conditions for all, not just Swoop pilots, would it not be better to concentrate on increasing conditions at mainline while no pilot went to work at Swoop. What do you do with an airline that has no pilots? You increase the wages to attract people. How would the company go about that? They would have to come to the bargaining table and ask the union to increase those wages.... thereby expending their bargaining capital, not ours. It comes down to a simple plan, "What if you opened an airline and nobody came to work for you?"

I know this plan is as likely to be executed as your plan is but a person can dream. In your plan you are asking 2000+ pilots to forego any increase in compensation so that 100ish pilots can double their wages. Easy decision for the company as one will cost a lot less than the other, but also a huge loss for all the pilots trying to forge a better life outside of Swoop.

[imjustlurking]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers

Since the last Baby Boomer was born in 1964, that would make that person 58 at the youngest. The more you know...

If you are going to throw around derogatory terms, you should strive for at least a modicum of accuracy. Pretty good odds it was a Gen X who called you a kid.

Great, don't tell your manager or your representative what you want in the next contract.

What if the MEC/LEC has been told what a person wants but it is different than what you want?

Management has dropped the hook in the water and you are biting. Ask the guys at Air Canada about how much bargaining effort was spent on Rouge wages and working conditions and how much the main line wages and working conditions increased during that same period.

Collectively, if we really want to improve wages and working conditions for all, not just Swoop pilots, would it not be better to concentrate on increasing conditions at mainline while no pilot went to work at Swoop. What do you do with an airline that has no pilots? You increase the wages to attract people. How would the company go about that? They would have to come to the bargaining table and ask the union to increase those wages.... thereby expending their bargaining capital, not ours. It comes down to a simple plan, "What if you opened an airline and nobody came to work for you?"

I know this plan is as likely to be executed as your plan is but a person can dream. In your plan you are asking 2000+ pilots to forego any increase in compensation so that 100ish pilots can double their wages. Easy decision for the company as one will cost a lot less than the other, but also a huge loss for all the pilots trying to forge a better life outside of Swoop.

Yes, you are correct that I called them a boomer in a derogatory manner. Thank you for calling me out for my derogatory remark while ignoring the remark that caused it.

As for the rest of your reply... dreaming for Swoop to be abolished is not going to accomplish anything. Swoop isn't going anywhere. Either you can think of 1/8 of your bargaining group as less-thans, or you can think of them as pilots flying the same airplane with the same company goal of SPOT. Whether Encorians flow to Swoop or it's filled by off the street applicants, the spots will be filled and those pilots will have a spot on the "One List" based on their DOH.

I stand by my belief that we should all be working together to improve WAWCON across the board and not just in ways that will make one group a few more dollars. Swoop pilots fly the same metal as mainline and if they are treated the same way as mainline pilots, the argument that Swoop only exists to undercut pilots will no longer exist. Sticking your head in the sand and pretending that improving Swoop won't improve WestJet is selfish and not helpful to anyone.

[Canadaflyer46]

Hahahahahahahaha. Did this guy actually just mention SPOT and LOMs?
Imjustlurking you're seriously missing some of the great points that people are bringing up, because your mind is already set in stone after your year or two at Encore. You're arguing with guys who've invested their whole careers at WJ; and a kid who's spent a year there trying to tell them that they have it all wrong about Swoop is frankly just embarrassing. I actually think they've been very patient in trying to educate you, in spite of the arrogant tone you've decided to take. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them of this one anymore.

[imjustlurking]

Hahahahahahahaha. Did this guy actually just mention SPOT and LOMs?
Imjustlurking you're seriously missing some of the great points that people are bringing up, because your mind is already set in stone after your year or two at Encore. You're arguing with guys who've invested their whole careers at WJ; and a kid who's spent a year there trying to tell them that they have it all wrong about Swoop is frankly just embarrassing. I actually think they've been very patient in trying to educate you, in spite of the arrogant tone you've decided to take. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them of this one anymore.

The only "education" I have been hearing sounds a lot like bitching. I get it, Swoop was a shit deal. Now stop complaining and make some lemonade.

[YC87DRVR]

Hahahahahahahaha. Did this guy actually just mention SPOT and LOMs?
Imjustlurking you're seriously missing some of the great points that people are bringing up, because your mind is already set in stone after your year or two at Encore. You're arguing with guys who've invested their whole careers at WJ; and a kid who's spent a year there trying to tell them that they have it all wrong about Swoop is frankly just embarrassing. I actually think they've been very patient in trying to educate you, in spite of the arrogant tone you've decided to take. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them of this one anymore.

The only "education" I have been hearing sounds a lot like bitching. I get it, Swoop was a shit deal. Now stop complaining and make some lemonade.

The ONLY bargaining capital Mainline pilots want used in regards to swoop is less scope or swoop ceasing to exist entirely. Heck, be safe to assume 99.9% of us would not care if they painted those tails teal, and let all the swoop drivers walk. That would be something to fight for!

[imjustlurking]

Hahahahahahahaha. Did this guy actually just mention SPOT and LOMs?
Imjustlurking you're seriously missing some of the great points that people are bringing up, because your mind is already set in stone after your year or two at Encore. You're arguing with guys who've invested their whole careers at WJ; and a kid who's spent a year there trying to tell them that they have it all wrong about Swoop is frankly just embarrassing. I actually think they've been very patient in trying to educate you, in spite of the arrogant tone you've decided to take. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them of this one anymore.

The only "education" I have been hearing sounds a lot like bitching. I get it, Swoop was a shit deal. Now stop complaining and make some lemonade.

The ONLY bargaining capital Mainline pilots want used in regards to swoop is less scope or swoop ceasing to exist entirely. Heck, be safe to assume 99.9% of us would not care if they painted those tails teal, and let all the swoop drivers walk. That would be something to fight for!

So to be clear... you are actively hoping for over 200 pilots to be fired just because you don't like the idea of Swoop?

[Mach1]

This is entertaining so I'll reply for fun.

In regard to my response, I was just educating you on the fact that anyone older than you isn't necessarily a Boomer. How you take that is entirely about you.

I have fought since day 1 for people to not accept a job at Swoop for wages that are less than what I get paid to fly the exact same aircraft. I emphasised exact because they were taken from our fleet and repainted. Had no one gone there, this issue wouldn't exist today so trying to throw shade at me by accusing me of not caring is you viewing the world through a very narrow lens.

If the money's not there, don't take the job... it is not like there are no options right now. Seriously, one could go fly for any number of fine charter operators making more money and sleeping in their own beds more often. Chasing metal always ends in tears.

People are trying to work together to improve WAWCON but they are taking a different path to the same destination you are speaking about and it appears that you feel there is only one right way to do things. Improving Swoop will do nothing for WAWCON at WestJet. At least not for another 10-15 years down the road. That's a long time scale for most at the company... longer than many have. If Swoop goes away and becomes a fare class, well that fixes a lot more problems than running 2 brands.

I find it interesting that you somehow read "hoping for over 200 pilots to be fired" into YC87DRVR's comments. I don't see where he said that at all. Those 200 pilots are our pilots and they would flow into our planes at our payscale as those pink tails would be repainted teal again. I would like to know where you got the idea that people would just be arbitrarily fired if Swoop disappeared tomorrow?

You asked earlier why I called you a troll, as several other people have done so on this thread. It is because of statements like the one above where you take a statement so far out of context and try to phrase it as a question and an accusation at the same time that people are calling you a troll.

[aerobod]

Here is the thing about the emerging competitors in the ULCC market segment that Swoop is operating in:
- Lynx Air - 46 737 MAX 8 firm orders or lease agreements lined up over the next 7 years, backed by Indigo Partners both technically and as a major shareholder.
- Flair Airlines - transition to a mainly 737 MAX 8 fleet of 30 aircraft by mid-2023, with aim for 50 aircraft in 2025 timeframe.
- Canada Jetlines - 15 A320-200 fleet aimed for by mid 2025.

All 3 now have operating certificates in place and funding to meet liquidity conditions (although Flair may have issues with it’s investors in this area).

As Swoop has shown, the load factors are improving faster than at WS mainline or AC as travellers are very price conscious as we exit the pandemic. There is no loyalty to anything but price in the ULCC market and WS mainline or any AC unit is not able to operate profitably in the same segment once a competitor has reached a size where they have some economy of scale. Their cost models are just too high, likely ex-fuel CASMs of CAD $0.10 to $0.12 for 737 sized aircraft when back in normal operation, compared with the ULCCs at $0.07 to $0.09 once they reach 20 or more aircraft. Basically around 35 to 40% cost advantage to the ULCCs, very much the issue Canadian Airlines had in Western Canada when WS entered the market in 1996.

If Swoop was rolled back into the WS mainline cost model, they likely would just lose the majority of customers to Lynx, Flair and Jetlines. Market growth opportunities seem to be in the ULCC area, WS will likely shrink market share without Swoop, potentially leading to less investment from Onex and a higher risk of it being sold off in parts to competitors in the future if Onex doesn’t see the opportunity to make a profit on it’s investment, when it divests itself of WS back into the public market in the future.

[Mach1]

It is your assertion that the only way for these airlines to be profitable is to reduce the wages of the pilots?

Planes are the same price because they are all the same planes. Fuel, same price. Fuel burns, same price. Landing fees, same price. Gate fees, same price. It goes on like this....

If your entire business model is based on paying the staff less, then that is not a very sustainable model. That is a margin so thin a razor would be fat shamed.

The interesting thing about the ULCC's you mentioned is that they all set their pay above Swoop. So, if you want to go work for a ULCC, wouldn't it make more sense to work for one that pays more than Swoop does?