DEC Westjet Swoop

[Mach1]

The single biggest issue WestJet has right now is an identity crisis.

We are not the LCC we started out as (Southwest in the North).

We are not a full service carrier (Air Canada) because we don't want to spent the money to be a full service carrier.

We are not a ULCC.

We are not anything right now but a directionless blob of indecision who is investing all of its time and energy into starting a new airline instead of running the one we already have.

It is not the cost of the pilots that will bring WJ into insolvency, and it's not our competitors, it is mismanagement that will end the company. If they figure out what we want to be and commit to it with everything we've got, we'll be just fine. If not, we'll just fade away, and so will our ULCC.

[lostaviator]

mach1 nailed it.

Great post.

[aerobod]

It is your assertion that the only way for these airlines to be profitable is to reduce the wages of the pilots?

Planes are the same price because they are all the same planes. Fuel, same price. Fuel burns, same price. Landing fees, same price. Gate fees, same price. It goes on like this....

If your entire business model is based on paying the staff less, then that is not a very sustainable model. That is a margin so thin a razor would be fat shamed.

The interesting thing about the ULCC's you mentioned is that they all set their pay above Swoop. So, if you want to go work for a ULCC, wouldn't it make more sense to work for one that pays more than Swoop does?

Pilot wage is only one of the cost factors, but the whole LCC / Legacy operating model is not compatible with a ULCC operating model.
CASM is based on seat density, aircraft type, specific airport in a given vicinity, time of day, airport processes, equipment configuration, etc. Seat density alone accounts for 9% CASM difference between WS Mainline and Swoop, but if Swoop picked a MAX 200 over a MAX 8 they could widen that gap to 14% with 199 seats and still stay with 4 flight attendants.

Lowest CASM wins for profitability when ticket price has to be matched to customers shopping on price for an equivalent flight route.

Ryanair as the gold standard of cost control in ULCCs consistently hits ex-fuel CASK below EUR 0.025 (equivalent to CASM of CAD$0.058) using mainly -800s with some MAX 8s and is generally the most profitable of the top 10 airlines by passenger revenue miles. They operate the same equipment as WS mainline at about 60% of the ex-fuel CASM.

WS mainline does not operate in any way close to a ULCC, Swoop does. Change in operating model throughout the whole airline are necessary to hit the aggressive ULCC CASMs.

[Mach1]

Then you are saying a ULCC can afford to pay its pilots a proper wage and still turn a profit? Nice.

[aerobod]

Then you are saying a ULCC can afford to pay its pilots a proper wage and still turn a profit? Nice.

Depends on what is defined as a proper wage, Ryanair starts at around €35K for Irish based first officers and ranges to about €200K for the highest paid captain. Seems the average is about €65K. They are obviously competitive in attracting the right pilots at their current wage scale.

[Dashdriver88]

Does anyone have an idea how many flight hours a pilot would fly per month at Swoop?

Thanks

[Canadaflyer46]

Mach1 absolutely nailed it.
Lots of folks very concerned with longterm survivability. The term "rudderless ship" has been floated around a lot lately and seems quite apt.
They can still turn it around here and succeed, but constantly trying to "get one over" the pilot group at the expense of the business is not sustainable.

[imjustlurking]

I find it interesting that you somehow read "hoping for over 200 pilots to be fired" into YC87DRVR's comments. I don't see where he said that at all. Those 200 pilots are our pilots and they would flow into our planes at our payscale as those pink tails would be repainted teal again. I would like to know where you got the idea that people would just be arbitrarily fired if Swoop disappeared tomorrow?

You asked earlier why I called you a troll, as several other people have done so on this thread. It is because of statements like the one above where you take a statement so far out of context and try to phrase it as a question and an accusation at the same time that people are calling you a troll.

Tell me how I am supposed to interpret the following in a different way?

The ONLY bargaining capital Mainline pilots want used in regards to swoop is less scope or swoop ceasing to exist entirely. Heck, be safe to assume 99.9% of us would not care if they painted those tails teal, and let all the swoop drivers walk. That would be something to fight for!

[cjet]

Does anyone have an idea how many flight hours a pilot would fly per month at Swoop?

Thanks

70-90 hrs depending on how much reserve your assigned.

CJet

[citizenbanana]

If Swoop did go under. What would happen to the pilots there? System rebid and whoever can hold it goes over or stays at mainline the rest furloughed or terminated? How would this work?

[Maritimer]

If Swoop did go under. What would happen to the pilots there? System rebid and whoever can hold it goes over or stays at mainline the rest furloughed or terminated? How would this work?

Boy would that ever stress-test the PTA

[Dashdriver88]

Does anyone have an idea how many flight hours a pilot would fly per month at Swoop?

Thanks

70-90 hrs depending on how much reserve your assigned.

CJet

Thanks so much.

[Dashdriver88]

Does anyone have an idea how many flight hours a pilot would fly per month at Swoop?

Thanks

70-90 hrs depending on how much reserve your assigned.

CJet

Hey CJet, last question. What type of bidding system do they have? Socialize like mainline?

[imjustlurking]

If Swoop did go under. What would happen to the pilots there? System rebid and whoever can hold it goes over or stays at mainline the rest furloughed or terminated? How would this work?

Boy would that ever stress-test the PTA

In theory it's cut and dry, but yes, the company would make one interpretation and the unions another.

Theoretically, if Encore was not willing to absorb the excess pilots, there would be a reduction bid resulting in the higher seniority pilots moving to WestJet and Encore and the lower seniority pilots getting laid off. I think the bigger discussion would be regarding the section of the CBA that covers layoffs as that was tested in a different way than a closure of a single business entity in the group.

[Kingair200]

Does anyone have an idea how many flight hours a pilot would fly per month at Swoop?

Thanks

70-90 hrs depending on how much reserve your assigned.

CJet

how's the schedule like for yyz base?? mostly single day or multi days pairing ?

[Paconats]

I see the max days worked are 18/19. What is a typical schedule for number of days on? Since you can only bid for days off, is it just random luck whether or not you get a 14 days of work or 18?

[igorcanuck]

The schedule is a mix of single and multi day pairings and the maximum is 6 days on with mandatory 2 days off after that.

[Paconats]

The schedule is a mix of single and multi day pairings and the maximum is 6 days on with mandatory 2 days off after that.

Thanks, but how many days/month of work and/or reserve is normal? I know 18/19 is the max but what is average? Looking at the route map out of YEG it's mostly quite long sectors. If those are usually single day out and back flights I would think you can't work more than 14-15 days a month to stay under 90 hours. Are there a lot of red-eyes that cover two calendar days?

[igorcanuck]

The schedule is a mix of single and multi day pairings and the maximum is 6 days on with mandatory 2 days off after that.

Thanks, but how many days/month of work and/or reserve is normal? I know 18/19 is the max but what is average? Looking at the route map out of YEG it's mostly quite long sectors. If those are usually single day out and back flights I would think you can't work more than 14-15 days a month to stay under 90 hours. Are there a lot of red-eyes that cover two calendar days?

Credits are high so pilots average 15-18 days a month.

[Paconats]

Thanks. Do you have a rough idea of the break down between single day and multi-day pairings?

[cjet]

Does anyone have an idea how many flight hours a pilot would fly per month at Swoop?

Thanks

70-90 hrs depending on how much reserve your assigned.

CJet

Hey CJet, last question. What type of bidding system do they have? Socialize like mainline?

Biding is completely different than mainline. 2 bid options are days off and check in and out times. Days off are awarded via seniority but Swoop uses a equilizer to distibute the flying. So all the pilots get equal flying then reserve is assigned in 1 day blocks to fill up your sked to 90 hrs. Swoop is currently short of pilots so not every one is getting reserve. I'm back a Mainline now so not sure of any changes since I left a few months ago.

Cjet

[fish4life]

Ask yourself how good of a job is it when year 1 WJ FO’d don’t even want swoop cpt

[imjustlurking]

Ask yourself how good of a job is it when year 1 WJ FO’d don’t even want swoop cpt

Okay, so why would someone want WS FO over WO CPT?

[Col. Panic]

Ask yourself how good of a job is it when year 1 WJ FO’d don’t even want swoop cpt

Okay, so why would someone want WS FO over WO CPT?

Pay? Schedule? Career progression? Self respect?

[Canadaflyer46]

Ask yourself how good of a job is it when year 1 WJ FO’d don’t even want swoop cpt

Okay, so why would someone want WS FO over WO CPT?

Did you actually just ask that? And you wonder why people accuse you of trolling.