Ferrying aircraft for time building

[ATLPilot]

I currently have a PPL and am working towards the time for CPL. To build some time and experience, I was hoping to offer to ferry non-high performance planes free of charge excluding costs. I have previously done survey work in my own aircraft for non-profits where I did not make any money, but they did pay the expenses.

Now because I will be flying someone else's airplane, is this idea legal? Would the owner be able to get insurance or would that be my responsibility?
Interested to hear all thoughts!

[photofly]

That would be unlawful under section 401.28 of the CARs. You could fly but you would have to pay all the costs including fuel without being reimbursed.

You could arguably do it the owner paid directly I.e. the money never can from your pocket.

[AirFrame]

I seem to recall that even the time added to your logbook has been deemed to be a reimbursement, as it has non-zero value to the pilot. So regardless of what cash goes where, there is still a net gain. The other issue is how you "advertise" this venture, and how you deal with such things as insurance when you're only flying a plane once to ferry it. The owner would need to add you to their insurance policy, or you would need an open policy of your own that applies to any aircraft you fly. Such a policy would spell out that it's for private use only (which I suspect a court would quickly unravel) or it would allow commercial use but would require a commercial license.

[photofly]

I seem to recall that even the time added to your logbook has been deemed to be a reimbursement, as it has non-zero value to the pilot.

The FAA issued an opinion to this effect, but I don't think it's ever been decided in Canada. It hinges on what is considered "reward".

[digits_]

I currently have a PPL and am working towards the time for CPL. To build some time and experience, I was hoping to offer to ferry non-high performance planes free of charge excluding costs. I have previously done survey work in my own aircraft for non-profits where I did not make any money, but they did pay the expenses.

Now because I will be flying someone else's airplane, is this idea legal? Would the owner be able to get insurance or would that be my responsibility?
Interested to hear all thoughts!

It's highly unlikely TC would consider that legal. It's also highly unlikely they would either find out or care about it, unless you advertise it or the aircraft owner rats you out when you screw up.

Realistically, I can see the insurance work if the current owner gets your name added to the policy, or has an open pilot clause (unlikely on private aircraft in the current insurance market). But that will depend on you having experience.

I understand what you are trying to do, but it's very similar to "hey, I just got my driver's license, would you like me to drive your Ferrari across the country so I can practice driving a bit more?"

[yowflyer23]

How does one get into aircraft ferrying in general? Do you post an ad on Kijiji offering to ferry planes or is it more of a who you know kind of deal?

[Bede]

Sorry, I'm having difficulty understanding how ferrying an aircraft without hire or reward breaches the CAR's. I've known many people who have done this including me years ago.

[Cessna 180]

Sorry, I'm having difficulty understanding how ferrying an aircraft without hire or reward breaches the CAR's. I've known many people who have done this including me years ago.

If someone asks you, "Hey, do you mind helping me out? I have a 182 in Red Deer I need to come to Toronto. I'm pretty busy, I'd cover your flight if you could take it for me" is a lot different than advertising that you offer FREE aircraft ferry services! Just cover the expenses!

Advertising is the issue. Not to mention insurance.

Don't forget that ferrying aircraft is a job, a well-paying one at that, and undercutting the market rate is all part of the same reasons Canadians are underpaid in nearly every facet of aviation. With that logic, you might as well send an email to the Chief Pilot of Jazz offering to fly their aircraft for free, just pay expenses. Who needs a Commerical Pilot's License?

[PilotDAR]

As the saying goes, if you have to ask, the answer is no. Don't advertise, be entirely properly qualified and insured, and participate in private aviation if invited to fly by an owner. Don't ask, and don't advertise.

[Bede]

Sorry, I'm having difficulty understanding how ferrying an aircraft without hire or reward breaches the CAR's. I've known many people who have done this including me years ago.

If someone asks you, "Hey, do you mind helping me out? I have a 182 in Red Deer I need to come to Toronto. I'm pretty busy, I'd cover your flight if you could take it for me" is a lot different than advertising that you offer FREE aircraft ferry services! Just cover the expenses!

Advertising is the issue. Not to mention insurance.

Don't forget that ferrying aircraft is a job, a well-paying one at that, and undercutting the market rate is all part of the same reasons Canadians are underpaid in nearly every facet of aviation. With that logic, you might as well send an email to the Chief Pilot of Jazz offering to fly their aircraft for free, just pay expenses. Who needs a Commerical Pilot's License?

I think you’re conflating a few issues here. First Jazz is a commercial operator and requires a CPL. Other flying, like ferrying aircraft, towing gliders, catching minnows, etc does not require a CPL. The economic issues are a different topic entirely.

Obviously you must be insured. Advertising is only a factor that helps you get caught, it’s not in the CAR’s.

I’m not making a judgement that it is legal or not legal, I’d just like a CAR’s reference and maybe some case law demonstrating that it’s not legal. Generally, the rule is you can provide an airplane, or a pilot, but you can’t provide both. The CARs are quite clear on when you can receive reimbursement, but that’s reimbursement for expenses on your own plane, not flying others plane.

[AirFrame]

I understand what you are trying to do, but it's very similar to "hey, I just got my driver's license, would you like me to drive your Ferrari across the country so I can practice driving a bit more?"

Don't laugh... A good friend of mine did that exact thing for a company right after high school. Spent two years shuttling high end exotic cars around the country, and only had a year on his license when he started (this was before graduated licensing). Had an absolute blast, and got some massive tips from the owners.

[digits_]

I’m not making a judgement that it is legal or not legal, I’d just like a CAR’s reference and maybe some case law demonstrating that it’s not legal. Generally, the rule is you can provide an airplane, or a pilot, but you can’t provide both. The CARs are quite clear on when you can receive reimbursement, but that’s reimbursement for expenses on your own plane, not flying others plane.

There are 2 options:
1) Either reimbursement for cost is a form of reward, or
2) It is not.


In case 1), then CAR 401.28 (1) Prohibits all such activities, with some exceptions, which all relate to an aircraft you own or hire, and thus the exceptions are irrelevant for the ferry scenario.

In case 2), this would make most of the exceptions in 401.28 meaningless, leading me to believe that 2) is unlikely to be a correct assumption.

Ergo, it's not legal.

[digits_]

I understand what you are trying to do, but it's very similar to "hey, I just got my driver's license, would you like me to drive your Ferrari across the country so I can practice driving a bit more?"

Don't laugh... A good friend of mine did that exact thing for a company right after high school. Spent two years shuttling high end exotic cars around the country, and only had a year on his license when he started (this was before graduated licensing). Had an absolute blast, and got some massive tips from the owners.

Damn... Nice!

[PostmasterGeneral]

In my opinion, you shouldn't be ferrying aircraft with low time. A lot can go wrong.

[Bede]

I’m not making a judgement that it is legal or not legal, I’d just like a CAR’s reference and maybe some case law demonstrating that it’s not legal. Generally, the rule is you can provide an airplane, or a pilot, but you can’t provide both. The CARs are quite clear on when you can receive reimbursement, but that’s reimbursement for expenses on your own plane, not flying others plane.

There are 2 options:
1) Either reimbursement for cost is a form of reward, or
2) It is not.


In case 1), then CAR 401.28 (1) Prohibits all such activities, with some exceptions, which all relate to an aircraft you own or hire, and thus the exceptions are irrelevant for the ferry scenario.

In case 2), this would make most of the exceptions in 401.28 meaningless, leading me to believe that 2) is unlikely to be a correct assumption.

Ergo, it's not legal.

The "reimbursement" is only if you're flying for hire and reward, which the poster said he's not. Further, the reimbursement is commonly interpreted as applying to the reimbursement of operating costs, not hotel room, etc.

Despite it being very common that PPL holders ferry other people's planes for free, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an enforcement case on this topic. That should tell you something.

[digits_]

The "reimbursement" is only if you're flying for hire and reward, which the poster said he's not. Further, the reimbursement is commonly interpreted as applying to the reimbursement of operating costs, not hotel room, etc.

Pretty sure he was expecting to be reimbursed for fuel costs as well.

Despite it being very common that PPL holders ferry other people's planes for free, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an enforcement case on this topic. That should tell you something.

Is it really that common? It's common that people want to do it, but I personally don't know any PPLs that have ferried aircraft.

Enforcement likely doesn't care because you are only risking your own life and a piece of metal belonging to a pilot who should also know the rules.

[photofly]

Sorry, I'm having difficulty understanding how ferrying an aircraft without hire or reward breaches the CAR's. I've known many people who have done this including me years ago.

If someone asks you, "Hey, do you mind helping me out? I have a 182 in Red Deer I need to come to Toronto. I'm pretty busy, I'd cover your flight if you could take it for me" is a lot different than advertising that you offer FREE aircraft ferry services! Just cover the expenses!

Advertising is the issue. Not to mention insurance.

Don't forget that ferrying aircraft is a job, a well-paying one at that, and undercutting the market rate is all part of the same reasons Canadians are underpaid in nearly every facet of aviation. With that logic, you might as well send an email to the Chief Pilot of Jazz offering to fly their aircraft for free, just pay expenses. Who needs a Commerical Pilot's License?

I think you’re conflating a few issues here. First Jazz is a commercial operator and requires a CPL. Other flying, like ferrying aircraft, towing gliders, catching minnows, etc does not require a CPL. The economic issues are a different topic entirely.

Obviously you must be insured. Advertising is only a factor that helps you get caught, it’s not in the CAR’s.

I’m not making a judgement that it is legal or not legal, I’d just like a CAR’s reference and maybe some case law demonstrating that it’s not legal. Generally, the rule is you can provide an airplane, or a pilot, but you can’t provide both. The CARs are quite clear on when you can receive reimbursement, but that’s reimbursement for expenses on your own plane, not flying others plane.

If a rule lists a set of specific circumstances in which you can be reimbursed for direct costs, a reasonable interpretation is that absent those specific circumstances, you cannot.

If the legal reimbursement applies to your own plane only then it follows that reimbursement in others isn’t.,

[PilotDAR]

I opine that two aspects of this which tip the balance away from "it's okay" include the probable interpretation that ferrying someone else's plane would be considered a "service" 'cause they wanted it done), and advertising that you will perform this service is your making your "service" "publicly available" which is also a trigger for TC. I agree that TC is not out looking to catch people doing this. But, advertising it isn't helping yourself! Insurance would be the bigger issue...

[photofly]

If you want evidence to suggest that reimbursement for costs is considered reward, look at the structure of the CARs:

Aeroplanes and Helicopters — Reimbursement of Costs Incurred in respect of a Flight

[SOR/2005-320, s. 4(F)]
401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(Goes on to list limited circumstances where reward, in the form of reimbursement only, is permitted)

The regulation about not flying for reward sits under the heading of “reimbursement of costs”. And remember the definition of reward includes “any payment”, of which reimbursement is one. The intent seems unarguable and unambiguous to me.

[AirFrame]

And remember the definition of reward includes “any payment”, of which reimbursement is one. The intent seems unarguable and unambiguous to me.

And "reward" can include the time built if the intent is for the person to continue to a commercial license.

One possible "out" for PPL's doing this is the case where a PPL offers to take another pilot's plane somewhere, but that PPL has no intentions of becoming a CPL, he's just out for some experience in another plane.

[Bede]

And remember the definition of reward includes “any payment”, of which reimbursement is one. The intent seems unarguable and unambiguous to me.

And "reward" can include the time built if the intent is for the person to continue to a commercial license.

One possible "out" for PPL's doing this is the case where a PPL offers to take another pilot's plane somewhere, but that PPL has no intentions of becoming a CPL, he's just out for some experience in another plane.

That's incorrect in Canada. True in the US though.

[AirFrame]

That's incorrect in Canada. True in the US though.

Oh? Do you have a reference that confirms time building is not considered compensation?

[photofly]

In Canada we can say it's not considered compensation because there is no published tribunal case or even an opinion where it has been considered as such. That stands in contrast to the situation in the USA, where it has explicitly been judged a benefit.

I think the opinion from the FAA legal counsel was in respect of parachute operations or glider towing - and that the pilot could refuse the "benefit" by omitting the hours so flown from their experience claimed. This is rather silly - that the legality of a flight at a time A depends on some entry or absence of entry at a future time B.

[Bede]

That's incorrect in Canada. True in the US though.

Oh? Do you have a reference that confirms time building is not considered compensation?

Sorry I don't. That's not really how it works though. TC won't put out of list of things that they allow/don't allow. What you can do though is go through the TATC decisions that deal with this CAR (start with Bellefleur) and the one's dealing with operating a commercial air service (see Selwan). You can get a pretty good idea what's allowed and what's not. (Illegal: taking people sightseeing, including "free" flight to lodge, flying real estate clients for "free", etc.) Other common activities for PPL holders (glider towing, minnow trapping, selling items out of the back of your airplane, camp checks, ferrying airplanes) have never been brought before the tribunal. That should give you a pretty good indication how the regulator interprets this CAR.

BTW, I don't think it's a good idea for a low time pilot to ferry aircraft and I don't see this as being a viable proposition. First, ferry flying is some of the most demanding flying out there. Unless it's a common type, getting insurance will be difficult too.