Pilot unity

[slob driver]

https://mobile.twitter.com/AlaskaPilots ... tIkiFfaGHQ

Please watch this video.

The above shows us all what we need to do going forward. Heavy lifting required by all pilot groups. In Canada, much of this will start with AC and WJ pilots.

[Lance rose]

Good luck. The ACPA MEC can't even get their affairs in order to do their business. The Vancouver reps tabled a motion to get rid of some of the MEC members that don't agree with their ideas. How's that for unity

[lownslow]

The Vancouver reps tabled a motion to get rid of some of the MEC members that don't agree with their ideas. How's that for unity

Technically it’s a move towards it? Stalin would be proud!

[flyingfool]

The YVR Chair's top priority has and always will be avoiding the flight line.

The base should make him return to the line under the eroding working conditions he has endorsed under his tenure

[Fanblade]

Good luck. The ACPA MEC can't even get their affairs in order to do their business. The Vancouver reps tabled a motion to get rid of some of the MEC members that don't agree with their ideas. How's that for unity

It's politics. Nothing more or less. The last MEC wiped the committee's clean as well. Now this MEC wants to reverse it.

ACPA is slowly changing hands from one demographic to a younger demographic. The power struggle will take awhile. But the end result is inevitable.

Futility.

Let the next gen have control. This stupid struggle will only hurt us all. You can't stop it so get out of the way

[Lance rose]

If he is so bad, why haven't the Vancouver Pilots started a recall process? The Montreal and Toronto guys are pushing hard to join ALPA why is it that one group stall it.

[Hangry]

Montreal is definitely not pushing for that.

[Ratherbe]

Neither is Toronto. I call former Jazz ALPA bs.

[dumpsterfire]

Well everyone I talk to in Toronto knows ACPA is a dumpster fire so that only leaves a competent union to go for...ALPA

I know management wants to push a narrative that some people actually think ACPA has done anything else other than handout concessions but reality demonstrates otherwise

[eurotrash]

If he is so bad, why haven't the Vancouver Pilots started a recall process? The Montreal and Toronto guys are pushing hard to join ALPA why is it that one group stall it.

How old is he anyways? Isn't he close to 60? What kind of pilot doesn't want to spend his last years in the cockpit instead of milking hotels & expenses off the backs of his own

[aeronauticaldisaster]

If he is so bad, why haven't the Vancouver Pilots started a recall process? The Montreal and Toronto guys are pushing hard to join ALPA why is it that one group stall it.

How old is he anyways? Isn't he close to 60? What kind of pilot doesn't want to spend his last years in the cockpit instead of milking hotels & expenses off the backs of his own

Lol...a 60 years old pilot who doesn't want to spend his last years in a 777 flight deck...maybe for his last day since he doesn't fly he can get some people to do a proper "water cannon salute" with water guns at his lake cottage in a stoic send off of where he spent his time as a pilot

[Ratherbe]

Well everyone I talk to in Toronto knows ACPA is a dumpster fire so that only leaves a competent union to go for...ALPA

I know management wants to push a narrative that some people actually think ACPA has done anything else other than handout concessions but reality demonstrates otherwise

ALPA a competent union!? An old boys club based in the US maybe. Ask the junior pilots at Jazz, any pilot at WestJet, Encore, KFC, etc. Double the dues and no meaningful support. If you want change then it would be better to fix any problems at ACPA or go with the Teamsters or Unifor. Personally I’d prefer to keep control of our own union without any outside influence, just like the APA (American Airlines).

[altiplano]

Well everyone I talk to in Toronto knows ACPA is a dumpster fire so that only leaves a competent union to go for...ALPA

I know management wants to push a narrative that some people actually think ACPA has done anything else other than handout concessions but reality demonstrates otherwise

ALPA a competent union!? An old boys club based in the US maybe.

Circle the wagons boys! LOL....

You got that backwards - Competent union ACPA is not, old boys club with the incumbents losing their grip ACPA is. Send those ole boys in YUL, YVR, YWG back to the LINE.

That's one thing at ALPA, reps mostly still fly at least partial blocks... How in touch can you be fully displaced in the crystal palace?

Ask the junior pilots at Jazz, any pilot at WestJet, Encore, KFC, etc. Double the dues and no meaningful support.

Is that who you compare yourself to? Jazz, Encore, Flightcraft?

Regionals & LCCs? Typical ACPA-think.

I prefer to ask the guys at Delta, United, FedEx. That's who I compare myself to. That's how I value myself. Then I look at the dismal contract performance and unacknowledged failures of our Association over the last 10 years.

Double the dues is an exaggeration. Besides, as is we are paying for turds. And "meaningful support"? Haven't ever seen that from ACPA.

If you want change then it would be better to fix any problems at ACPA or go with the Teamsters or Unifor. Personally I’d prefer to keep control of our own union without any outside influence, just like the APA (American Airlines).

We were told to fix it or told to ditch it by paid consultants and if we were to fix it, they told us how to do it and we didn't listen and actually managed to change our governance for the worse!

So it's time to ditch it now... and you propose Teamsters and Unifor! LOL. Maybe Jerry D can come out of retirement and head that drive for you, I mean after the investigation is all over. Maybe there's some payments and envelopes of cash to pass around and build that support up...

I'd alternatively join APA, IPA or SWAPA as a compromise but I doubt they would want us. So ALPA it is, sooner the better.

[Bede]

ALPA a competent union!? An old boys club based in the US maybe. Ask the junior pilots at Jazz, any pilot at WestJet, Encore, KFC, etc. Double the dues and no meaningful support.

That’s nonsense. I’m at WJ. We just surveyed our members and around 85% supported ALPA. I have seen first hand the improvements and successes our union has brought us since we certified. It hasn’t been perfect, but we’re slowly gaining ground and moving forward.

[MontrealCanucks]

ALPA a competent union!? An old boys club based in the US maybe. Ask the junior pilots at Jazz, any pilot at WestJet, Encore, KFC, etc. Double the dues and no meaningful support. If you want change then it would be better to fix any problems at ACPA or go with the Teamsters or Unifor. Personally I’d prefer to keep control of our own union without any outside influence, just like the APA (American Airlines).

An old boys club?

ACPA be like: Watch this!

Why is it the same old characters at ACPA who chow down on the displacements? How long has the YVR Base Chair been on full displacement? How much has he flown in the last decade? How many displacements did the CMSC Chair get last month? And the month before?

And American will be at ALPA before the end of the year because they want to join the union that has been in this exact business for 90 years.

And Sunwing has left Unifor for...take a guess...yup...ALPA....


Unifor...

[a220hereicome]

The YVR Chair's top priority has and always will be avoiding the flight line.

The base should make him return to the line under the eroding working conditions he has endorsed under his tenure

Personal attacks.

Base chair displacements aren't unique to ACPA. They're the norm at ALPA carriers as well, I stand to be corrected on that. I think it makes sense to have a base chair fully displaced. They're looking after the personal issues of 800, 900 or 2200 members.

I'm assuming you're okay with a base chair's displacement, as long as they're on your side of the ALPA debate?

The great thing about democracy and a constitution that protects it is that we'll all have our say. If there's a deal offered by ALPA, we'll get to see it, digest it, debate it, and vote on it. Not 5 or 10 MEC members, not a few hundred members on Whatsapp. All 4000 of us. And I'll happily move on from there.

[rudder]

The great thing about democracy and a constitution that protects it is that we'll all have our say. If there's a deal offered by ALPA, we'll get to see it, digest it, debate it, and vote on it. Not 5 or 10 MEC members, not a few hundred members on Whatsapp. All 4000 of us. And I'll happily move on from there.

You don’t need to wait for an offer (which will be filtered through the ACPA MEC just like last time). Did you ever get to vote on that one? And wasn’t it the actions of the ACPA MEC that ultimately flushed it down the toilet? Perhaps they knew what the impact of their actions would be. Didn’t matter what the membership wanted or voted on.

Just start an ALPA card campaign. And during the ‘open period’ of your CBA (90 days prior to expiry) file for a representation change with the CIRB.

I have to wonder if ALPA really wants anything to do with the AC pilots. 25 years of infighting, anarchy, and representational dysfunction and counting…

[a220hereicome]

You don’t need to wait for an offer (which will be filtered through the ACPA MEC just like last time). Did you ever get to vote on that one? And wasn’t it the actions of the ACPA MEC that ultimately flushed it down the toilet? Perhaps they knew what the impact of their actions would be. Didn’t matter what the membership wanted or voted on.

Just start an ALPA card campaign. And during the ‘open period’ of your CBA (90 days prior to expiry) file for a representation change with the CIRB.

No thanks, cart before the horse. Some of the P4C crowd would like exactly that "Let's just ditch ACPA, join ALPA and sort it out later", I don’t think that’s the case with most of us.

I'll wait to see what's on offer before signing any card. Lots of political maneuvering before a formal membership offer is reissued. Jazz crowd won't be happy losing their influence in Washington (if there ever was any). "We speak for Canada!"

For what it's worth, the current MEC is more ALPA leaning (ever so slightly 5+1). If ALPA steps on to the dance floor again then the membership will likely see what's on the table, and we'll get to vote on it. I’ll live with the results.

[sportingrifle]

ALPA and ALPA(C) are very different animals. I would join ALPA in a heartbeat but only on the condition that we were not in any way beholden or associated with ALPA(C). Seat at the head table and roll call voting. Anything less takes us right back to the CALPA debacle circa 1994.

[altiplano]

ALPA and ALPA(C) are very different animals. I would join ALPA in a heartbeat but only on the condition that we were not in any way beholden or associated with ALPA(C). Seat at the head table and roll call voting. Anything less takes us right back to the CALPA debacle circa 1994.

ALPA Canada is Group C of ALPA and only seperate insofar as it lobbies issues in Canada.

Anyway, we had the deal you seek in place in 2018, it was voted and passed by the ALPA executive were Air Canada Pilots to decide to merge.

It included:

- Eligibility for Group A changed to include Canadian airlines and 4000 members or $10million in dues USD or CAD
- AC joins as a Group A carrier (same as United/Delta/Fedex)
- AC elects it's own EVP to the ALPA executive
- ALPA Canada reformed
- Group C no longer elects ALPA Canada President
- Roll call voting at ALPA Canada

I guarantee that deal would be available again.

ACPA is a mess, burn it down.

[goingmissed]

ALPA and ALPA(C) are very different animals. I would join ALPA in a heartbeat but only on the condition that we were not in any way beholden or associated with ALPA(C). Seat at the head table and roll call voting. Anything less takes us right back to the CALPA debacle circa 1994.

ALPA Canada is Group C of ALPA and only seperate insofar as it lobbies issues in Canada.

Anyway, we had the deal you seek in place in 2018, it was voted and passed by the ALPA executive were Air Canada Pilots to decide to merge.

It included:

- Eligibility for Group A changed to include Canadian airlines and 4000 members or $10million in dues USD or CAD
- AC joins as a Group A carrier (same as United/Delta/Fedex)
- AC elects it's own EVP to the ALPA executive
- ALPA Canada reformed
- Group C no longer elects ALPA Canada President
- Roll call voting at ALPA Canada

I guarantee that deal would be available again.

ACPA is a mess, burn it down.

I'm not sure yet how I feel about some of the changes, but I would love to see ALPA go from the dominant association in the Canadian industry to the primary association. Imagine the progress that would occur.

[Lance rose]

Could you imagine the YUL and YVR reps under the ALPA banner. Definition of Unstoppable.

[rudder]

ALPA Canada is Group C of ALPA and only seperate insofar as it lobbies issues in Canada.

Anyway, we had the deal you seek in place in 2018, it was voted and passed by the ALPA executive were Air Canada Pilots to decide to merge.

It included:

- Eligibility for Group A changed to include Canadian airlines and 4000 members or $10million in dues USD or CAD
- AC joins as a Group A carrier (same as United/Delta/Fedex)
- AC elects it's own EVP to the ALPA executive
- ALPA Canada reformed
- Group C no longer elects ALPA Canada President
- Roll call voting at ALPA Canada

I guarantee that deal would be available again.

ACPA is a mess, burn it down.

I am not so sure that deal still exists in 2022.

ALPA President has changed. ALPA(C) (Group C) has added several significant new member Pilot groups (including Morningstar and Cargojet). Their voices will now be added to any discourse that might arise on this topic which already includes WestJet, WJ Encore, Jazz, and Transat. And if there is a future representation vote for a consolidated WestJet/Sunwing pilot group, I am guessing that ALPA will prevail over Unifor. The aggregate of these groups exceeds the ACPA membership roll.

As usual, the AC pilots want to be told that they are special. They are not. They are simply the single largest pilot group in Canada. That is the sole leverage in any discussions with ALPA that might require Constitutional or Administrative Policy Manual change.

I won’t hold my breath. If the AC pilots are waiting for a golden deal then they may be waiting a long time. In the meantime, I am sure that the ACPA EXEC, senior staff, and AC management will vigorously defend status quo.

[Fanblade]

ALPA a competent union!? An old boys club based in the US maybe. Ask the junior pilots at Jazz, any pilot at WestJet, Encore, KFC, etc. Double the dues and no meaningful support.

That’s nonsense. I’m at WJ. We just surveyed our members and around 85% supported ALPA. I have seen first hand the improvements and successes our union has brought us since we certified. It hasn’t been perfect, but we’re slowly gaining ground and moving forward.

We know.

We have a turbulent time ahead. Just like you guys did. It’s messy. Always will be.

That’s okay simply because it has to be done for the betterment of the group. Some don’t see it? Oh well.

[sportingrifle]

Altiplano...yes you are correct. But my understanding is that the deal never happened because of ALPA(C), which is why I made the 1994 reference.
I lost all respect for ALPA (C) when at the eleventh hour they threw the proposed new and improved flight duty rules under the bus. From a group that at the time didn't collectively operate a single ultra long haul aircraft. Shades of 1994, and problematic as ACPA is, I would rather work within to improve it than descend into the snake pit of ALPA(c). The interests of Dash 8 operators and charter operators are much more divergent than the "we are one big happy family" promoters want to acknowledge. Different needs and goals, different unions to represent those needs and goals.
Now if ALPA wants to initiate the original deal.....that would be promising.