Days off given while on the road

[AV8tor123]

As per the CARs, can an operator give flight crew days off while on the road away from base? Assuming under 604 regs.

[Redneck_pilot86]

Absolutely. As long as you're not on call, and not bothered by the company for that "off" period, it is legal.

[Blueontop]

As per the CARs, can an operator give flight crew days off while on the road away from base? Assuming under 604 regs.

Welcome to the wonderful world of Canadian Aviation…

[TeePeeCreeper]

Legal? Yes but I’d threaten to resign if my guy pulled that kind of shit on me.

Are you dealing directly with the owner or a management company?

TPC

[digits_]

And not the 'oh you were on call for 7 days but we didn't call you, those were your days off'. That's illegal.

[schnitzel2k3]

And not the 'oh you were on call for 7 days but we didn't call you, those were your days off'. That's illegal.

I've had many calls where I've tried to address this issue in particular to no avail. It's hard to change these policies as it's the management companies mentality and the way they like to do business.

Just like bonds. Training is a cost of doing business, but god help you if you don't play ball signing a 100k contract that shackles you for 24 months to your jet sometimes with the same owner...

[Jet Jockey]

On a long trip where you are staying put for a while, we do not count them as days "OFF" but CARs "RESET" days.

Days "OFF" are just that, your own days where you are "OFF" and not required to work. If a flight comes along and they "ask" you to fly on your days "OFF" and you agree, you will get overtime pay... We usually get 8-9 scheduled days "OFF" a month.

When you are assigned on an aircraft and there are no flights, you are expected to be available within 2 hours for a last minute flight... In the last 32 years I have been called out for last minute flights less then 20 times and then we usually know when things are about to happen.

[digits_]

And not the 'oh you were on call for 7 days but we didn't call you, those were your days off'. That's illegal.

I've had many calls where I've tried to address this issue in particular to no avail. It's hard to change these policies as it's the management companies mentality and the way they like to do business.

Just like bonds. Training is a cost of doing business, but god help you if you don't play ball signing a 100k contract that shackles you for 24 months to your jet sometimes with the same owner...

Bonds suck, but they are usually legal.

The retroactive days off thing is not. I believe there were some charter companies in Calgary that got in hot water because of that. Might be helpful to contact TC if your company still expects this. Or document it and SMS it. Or ask a bonded guy who wants to leave to SMS it.

[elonmusk]

As per the CARs, can an operator give flight crew days off while on the road away from base? Assuming under 604 regs.

Even AC does this on overseas for 24 hours free from duty. Especially on the long 7+ day pairings. Truly NHL level regulations and working conditions.

[schnitzel2k3]

And not the 'oh you were on call for 7 days but we didn't call you, those were your days off'. That's illegal.

I've had many calls where I've tried to address this issue in particular to no avail. It's hard to change these policies as it's the management companies mentality and the way they like to do business.

Just like bonds. Training is a cost of doing business, but god help you if you don't play ball signing a 100k contract that shackles you for 24 months to your jet sometimes with the same owner...

Bonds suck, but they are usually legal.

The retroactive days off thing is not. I believe there were some charter companies in Calgary that got in hot water because of that. Might be helpful to contact TC if your company still expects this. Or document it and SMS it. Or ask a bonded guy who wants to leave to SMS it.

If it's greater than a 2 hour callout, does that change things? Our management company advises the owners that we have a greater than 2 hour callout, but retroactive days off, so no actual days off. Other choice they offer is 2 hour 14/3.

Knowing them they would find a way to circumvent the 14/3 as well so I stick with the longer oncall.

[‘Bob’]

We usually get 8-9 scheduled days "OFF" a month.

How can you be an alcoholic under such terrible conditions?

[digits_]

I've had many calls where I've tried to address this issue in particular to no avail. It's hard to change these policies as it's the management companies mentality and the way they like to do business.

Just like bonds. Training is a cost of doing business, but god help you if you don't play ball signing a 100k contract that shackles you for 24 months to your jet sometimes with the same owner...

Bonds suck, but they are usually legal.

The retroactive days off thing is not. I believe there were some charter companies in Calgary that got in hot water because of that. Might be helpful to contact TC if your company still expects this. Or document it and SMS it. Or ask a bonded guy who wants to leave to SMS it.

If it's greater than a 2 hour callout, does that change things? Our management company advises the owners that we have a greater than 2 hour callout, but retroactive days off, so no actual days off. Other choice they offer is 2 hour 14/3.

Knowing them they would find a way to circumvent the 14/3 as well so I stick with the longer oncall.

I don't see how a day where you have to be available for work within 2 hours, is a day off. Nor do I see how TC would approve that in today's climate. But if nobody complaints, why would they investigate...

What does your ops manual say? Just a meaningless copy of the CARs?

[Big Pistons Forever]

A day “off” means you can have a beer at lunch and a glass of wine with dinner. If you can’t do that you are on call reserve.

[TeePeeCreeper]

A day “off” means you can have a beer at lunch and a glass of wine with dinner. If you can’t do that you are on call reserve.

Agreed. However, (OP correct me if I’m wrong) the premise seems to be “Pilot of mine, seeing as you have just flown me to MKAY and I’m putting you up in a hotel for X amount of days without your having to fly me around… Hell I’ve just given you time off work away from your home base and family! I might want to leave tomorrow or in 3 days from now… You’ll be the first and last to know what my plans are though. You should really be thanking me for this wonderful opportunity!”

[schnitzel2k3]

What does your ops manual say? Just a meaningless copy of the CARs?

Pretty much minus the DH6 stuff. I think the way they've organized things, it's essentially operating in that legal grey area under our lengthened callout time is effectively the day off. The last trainer at FSI said our COM and SOPS are a joke. We're essentially not on reserve or standby, we can have a drink and be rested and ready to go, but the schedule will show the days off happened when you werent called three days ago so that if a trip comes up you are now cleared to go 14.

It only affects you when it affects you, usually a day where you've bought a ticket, made plans with friends or a medical appointment.

I blame TC on not being absolutely clear on the rules. They've got this legal fluff and/or website, so absolutely full of crap that it gives operators massive wiggle room to get creative. I think the line I use when I disagree is 'just because TC makes it legal, doesn't make it right'.

End of the day is we make good money, the people I fly for are good, but their decisions are heavily affected by the managers, and so the job is just a job sadly. Unfortunately I think to do better in bizav is very very difficult, it's one big Craps shoot in the WAWCON department.

[vanislepilot]

Good God. Reminds me of a King air gig I used to have, it was 24/7 on call since it was just a captain and I. I remember them promising a "schedule" what I naive 400 hr guy I was. Same crap, we only flew like twice a week but had to be on call for the rest. No call? Congrats you just had a day off! Probably one of the most BS schedules in all of Canada. I was actually happy to get laid off from it

[Jet Jockey]

A day “off” means you can have a beer at lunch and a glass of wine with dinner. If you can’t do that you are on call reserve.

In our case not only is the statement above obviously true, they also understand that whenever you are on stby (scheduled but not flying) or if you are away on a trip that by the time dinner rolls by that most people will consume some alcohol (reasonably) and pilots may not be available for a last minute trip.

[Pratt X 3]

As found in recent job ads:

• Ability to work in a 24/7 operation and to be On-Call unless time off is booked in advance and approved

illustrates the absurdity of how management companies treat their workforce. This particular company may need to revise this "perk" as they seem to be trying to add a third pilot on some of their aircraft to try to stop the bleed/attract potential victims.

[Loon-A-Tic]

I've often given consideration to a corporate or managed gig. However regardless of the make & model or size of the paycheque a three crew setup is essential, not a perk

[Jet Jockey]

I've often given consideration to a corporate or managed gig. However regardless of the make & model or size of the paycheque a three crew setup is essential, not a perk

At minimum... 3 1/2 or 4 is better.

Think of days off, vacation days, training (sometimes bi-annually), sick personnel etc.

[schnitzel2k3]

I've often given consideration to a corporate or managed gig. However regardless of the make & model or size of the paycheque a three crew setup is essential, not a perk

At minimum... 3 1/2 or 4 is better.

Think of days off, vacation days, training (sometimes bi-annually), sick personnel etc.

This.

[J31]

Buy a multi million dollar jet with all the latest safety gear, spend 1000's of dollars on fuel, ATC fees, landing fee's, 1000's of dollars on catering, and then cheap out on your flight crew. The last link in getting you safely to your destination.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Pilots and for that matter PAOBD are viewed as a necessary evil to be "sourced" at the lowest possible cost to or by the principle and with cost "recovery" by any means possible.

[digits_]

Buy a multi million dollar jet with all the latest safety gear, spend 1000's of dollars on fuel, ATC fees, landing fee's, 1000's of dollars on catering, and then cheap out on your flight crew. The last link in getting you safely to your destination.

Sounds like a valid argument, but it isn't. No flight crew is going to say "well, they don't pay me enough, so now I'm intentionally crashing the plane". The flight crew's own life is at stake, so no matter how bad the pay or schedule, they'll try to land the plane safely.

If anything, you'd want to make sure your AME is well paid, he can walk away from the job if he's fed up, and cause hidden dangerous situations without suffering the consequences.

[J31]

Buy a multi million dollar jet with all the latest safety gear, spend 1000's of dollars on fuel, ATC fees, landing fee's, 1000's of dollars on catering, and then cheap out on your flight crew. The last link in getting you safely to your destination.

Sounds like a valid argument, but it isn't. No flight crew is going to say "well, they don't pay me enough, so now I'm intentionally crashing the plane". The flight crew's own life is at stake, so no matter how bad the pay or schedule, they'll try to land the plane safely.

If anything, you'd want to make sure your AME is well paid, he can walk away from the job if he's fed up, and cause hidden dangerous situations without suffering the consequences.

Not saying the pilot will intentionally crash the airplane. I also acknowledge it is hard to justify a business case when the airplane fly's 2 days per week. I am saying that having pilots that have a scheduled days off in their life are less likely to make fatal errors. Being on call 24/7 365 days per year sucks. Been there, done that, never again. My opinion.