Class 1 medical with second pilot restriction

[NewPilot22]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and hoping to revive this thread.
I'm training for my PPL currently on a Class 3 unrestricted medical. I talked on the phone with the Regional Aeromedical Officer and she said she could likely issue a Class 1 "with or as copilot" once I start training for CPL. I was hoping to get an experienced pilot's perspective on how holding a Class 1 "with or as copilot" impacts hireability, especially for a first flying job.

[7ECA]

Significantly, unless you somehow think you'll be going multi-crew from day one.

What reason was given for going from an unrestricted Category 3 medical, to a restricted Category 1?

[NewPilot22]

Significantly, unless you somehow think you'll be going multi-crew from day one.

What reason was given for going from an unrestricted Category 3 medical, to a restricted Category 1?

I'll PM you, if that's ok

[Bede]

With an unrestricted category 3, you can certainly train for a CPL. However, as tired said, there may be a limit on the flexibility Transport Canada allows when it comes to issuing you a CPL. But, human rights would require them to consider it.

Sorry, not true.

https://canlii.ca/t/gjnkm

[PilotDAR]

currently on a Class 3 unrestricted medical. I talked on the phone with the Regional Aeromedical Officer and she said she could likely issue a Class 1 "with or as copilot" once I start training for CPL

I suggest that you really understand this with great clarity - it sounds odd. My experience has been that a restriction is not "CAT" specific. If the proposed restriction is not likely to be temporary, this is something you should be very clear about before you invest a lot in learning to fly.

Flying as a second crew member with an "as or with" restriction imposes extra burden on the operator and other pilot, not a "doesn't matter" situation for the operator.

[dialdriver]

currently on a Class 3 unrestricted medical. I talked on the phone with the Regional Aeromedical Officer and she said she could likely issue a Class 1 "with or as copilot" once I start training for CPL

I suggest that you really understand this with great clarity - it sounds odd. My experience has been that a restriction is not "CAT" specific. If the proposed restriction is not likely to be temporary, this is something you should be very clear about before you invest a lot in learning to fly.

Flying as a second crew member with an "as or with" restriction imposes extra burden on the operator and other pilot, not a "doesn't matter" situation for the operator.

My restriction is category specific. My cat 1 is restricted and my cat 3 is not. This is clearly stated on my certificate.

Thus restriction does not cause any burden on my employer.

[photofly]

My restriction is category specific. My cat 1 is restricted and my cat 3 is not. This is clearly stated on my certificate.

Thus restriction does not cause any burden on my employer.

It's very difficult to see how that helps you. Neither a CPL nor an ATPL are validated by a category 3 medical certificate under any circumstances or for any purpose. Does your ADB say you hold *both* a CPL/ATPL and a PPL?

[dialdriver]

My restriction is category specific. My cat 1 is restricted and my cat 3 is not. This is clearly stated on my certificate.

Thus restriction does not cause any burden on my employer.

It's very difficult to see how that helps you. A CPL isn't validated by a category 3 medical certificate under any circumstances or for any purpose. Does your ADB say you hold *both* a CPL and a PPL?

I hold a cat 1 medical.

[photofly]

My restriction is category specific. My cat 1 is restricted and my cat 3 is not. This is clearly stated on my certificate.

Thus restriction does not cause any burden on my employer.

It's very difficult to see how that helps you. A CPL isn't validated by a category 3 medical certificate under any circumstances or for any purpose. Does your ADB say you hold *both* a CPL and a PPL?

I hold a cat 1 medical.

RIght. But your category 1 is restricted to "as or with copilot":

My restriction is category specific. My cat 1 is restricted

I was referring to your unrestricted category 3 medical. Unless you hold a PPL, a category 3 medical does nothing for you. A category 3 medical certificate doesn't ever validate a CPL, so the lack of restriction of your category 3 is academic. You can't use it.

[NewPilot22]

currently on a Class 3 unrestricted medical. I talked on the phone with the Regional Aeromedical Officer and she said she could likely issue a Class 1 "with or as copilot" once I start training for CPL

I suggest that you really understand this with great clarity - it sounds odd. My experience has been that a restriction is not "CAT" specific. If the proposed restriction is not likely to be temporary, this is something you should be very clear about before you invest a lot in learning to fly.

Flying as a second crew member with an "as or with" restriction imposes extra burden on the operator and other pilot, not a "doesn't matter" situation for the operator.

I appreciate your replies so far, thank you!

Do you mind describing how it imposes a burden on the operator if the position is multi-crew and the medical specifies it's valid for multi-crew Cat 1?
I have no experience or background knowledge and am just trying to understand.

[dialdriver]

My license does not say "with or as copilot". It says, "Subject to a letter...". That letter states the "restrictions do not apply while using only the Private Pilot Privileges (PPL) of your professional (ATPL) license".

[photofly]

My license does not say "with or as copilot". It says, "Subject to a letter...". That letter states the "restrictions do not apply while using only the Private Pilot Privileges (PPL) of your professional (ATPL) license".

That makes sense: your restriction, whatever the wording is, and the relaxation thereto, are both on your category 1 medical.
However you said earlier:

My restriction is category specific. My cat 1 is restricted and my cat 3 is not. This is clearly stated on my certificate.

But you don't actually have a category 3 medical - that would mean you had two different medical certificates. You have just one medical certificate - a category 1 - with restriction that differ based on the use of your ATPL. It may sound like the same thing - but it's not.

[dialdriver]

Sorry, it's cleary stated in my letter.

The previous poster suggested restrictions aren't category specific.

[photofly]

Sorry, it's cleary stated in my letter.

The previous poster suggested restrictions aren't category specific.

I think we're arguing at cross-purposes. I'm trying to clear up a matter of terminology. Your restriction isn't category specific - it's use-specific. It applies to one use of your ATPL but not the other. Since you only have one category of medical, there's nothing "category"-specific about your restriction.

As far as I know, the only people who have two separate categories of medical certificate (and therefore could have a restriction that applied to one category and not the other) are ATCOs who also hold a PPL - they might have both a category 2 and a category 3 medical certificate.

[dialdriver]

I believe the restriction is clearly category specific, as it is a cat 1 medical. But, the letter clarifies the medical constraints do not apply to the PPL flying privileges of a cat 1 medical.

"The letter goes on to say, " You will therefore not be receiving a separate Category 3 Medical Certificate and PPL". So, if there was a requirement for different restrictions to my PPL flying, I would get separate documents. So, I could have a cat 1 and cat 3 with different restrictions.

[photofly]

"The letter goes on to say, " You will therefore not be receiving a separate Category 3 Medical Certificate and PPL". So, if there was a requirement for different restrictions to my PPL flying, I would get separate documents. So, I could have a cat 1 and cat 3 with different restrictions.

It says "You will therefore not be receiving a separate Category 3 Medical Certificate and PPL" - my emphasis. Which is interesting. So it is possible to have both a CPL and PPL at the same time.

[PilotDAR]

Do you mind describing how it imposes a burden on the operator if the position is multi-crew and the medical specifies it's valid for multi-crew Cat 1?

At the least, TC will require the other pilot flying with you to have incapacitation training which is a bit of a burden in training other crew, along with a shoulder harness (which I'm sure they wear anyway).

"Subject to a letter...". That letter states the "restrictions do not apply while using only the Private Pilot Privileges (PPL) of your professional (ATPL) license".

Excellent for you! Though I agree, it's odd wording, if you've got it take it! I tried to get exactly that wording in my "letter" and it was a hard no - the medical standards which applied to my CAT 1 would also apply to a CAT 3, had I had one. I couldn't even get a "no passengers" restriction, which I specifically asked for, and is a regulator possibility. Work with what you've got, though my opinion is that an "as or with" restriction is a disincentive for an operator to hire you, I think it's more reserved for "on the job already" pilots for a temporary condition.

[tsgarp]

In terms of training, you will need to get the solo hours in for your CPL. That can be done with a CAT 3. You only need the CAT 1 when you are ready for the flight test and written exam. If your CAME is willing to issue you an unrestricted CAT 3, then you should have no trouble getting the solo requirements for you PPL and CPL. Once the solo requirements are complete, visit the CAME again and get the restricted CAT 1 issued for admission to the test.

A medical restriction will bar you from a lot of the traditional entry level jobs like bush flying or instructing. Ten years ago I would have said this was a death sentence for your career, but these days, with newly minted CPLs going directly into the right seat at Jazz or other regionals, I think you might stand a good chance. Just make sure you get done your training and get some experience before the next downturn (which is likely going to be in the next 12 months or so based on inflation and fuel prices)

[photofly]

I think you could make an very strong argument that to reject your application because of your medical restriction would be unlawfully to discriminate against you on the protected grounds of disability.

Every employer is required to make reasonable accommodations for disabled employees and applicants, up to the point of “undue hardship”.

The employer would have to show it would be unreasonably burdensome on them to accommodate your licence restriction. That’s a very high bar for an employer to meet; it would not be enough to show there was just some extra cost.

If an operation flies a lot of single-pilot operations then an unrestricted medical is a genuine occupational requirement, and it would be lawful to reject you. But if the operator has enough two pilot operations to be able to fit you in, they would be required to do so.

[PilotDAR]

If your CAME is willing to issue you an unrestricted CAT 3

There's a subtle but rather important in this case difference: The CAME performs and signs off your examination. TC issues the medical. CAME's and TC may disagree - TC will prevail. In my case my CAME, and two other medical doctors said they saw no reason for a temporary to my CAT 1, and indeed, one of the doctors signed off an unrestricted DZ driver's medical for me during the period. But, TC still though I should be restricted, and not even fly solo (I asked).

A ridiculous extreme example of this was decades back, I literally had my CAME medical exam and written CPL exam scheduled at Buttonville the same day. CAT 3 to CAT 1 medical in the morning, then written. The CAME signoff in my booklet was literally still wet when I presented it to support my CPL written exam. Nope, "Your examination is complete, but TC has not issued you the CAT 1, so no write" - and no negotiation. I had to go back a month later to write.

[tsgarp]

If your CAME is willing to issue you an unrestricted CAT 3

There's a subtle but rather important in this case difference: The CAME performs and signs off your examination. TC issues the medical. CAME's and TC may disagree - TC will prevail. In my case my CAME, and two other medical doctors said they saw no reason for a temporary to my CAT 1, and indeed, one of the doctors signed off an unrestricted DZ driver's medical for me during the period. But, TC still though I should be restricted, and not even fly solo (I asked).

A ridiculous extreme example of this was decades back, I literally had my CAME medical exam and written CPL exam scheduled at Buttonville the same day. CAT 3 to CAT 1 medical in the morning, then written. The CAME signoff in my booklet was literally still wet when I presented it to support my CPL written exam. Nope, "Your examination is complete, but TC has not issued you the CAT 1, so no write" - and no negotiation. I had to go back a month later to write.

Point well taken.