Advertising Aircraft rides. Legal or not?

[imapo16]

I'm a CPL holder who's trying to gain some flight hours from left and right until I can find a job in aviation. My questions is: Is it legal that I can bring passengers and charged them only for the fuel and rental of the plane without taking any profits?

[Aviatard]

I'm a CPL holder who's trying to gain some flight hours from left and right until I can find a job in aviation. My questions is: Is it legal that I can bring passengers and charged them only for the fuel and rental of the plane without taking any profits?

If they are incidental to the flight then yes if you would have made the flight without passengers. Otherwise no.

[photofly]

Basically no it’s not legal.

[Bede]

I don't understand why this comes up so often on this forum. Isn't this covered in CPL ground school?

"I'm going to Ottawa today, want to come?" - Legal to split costs.
"Where do you want to fly today?" - Not legal for costs.
Let's fly some Air Cadets - Legal for entire costs.
Fly somewhere to fix a cottage - charge whatever you want.
"I'm a real estate agent flying you to look at lakefront properties for free" - not legal.
Tow gliders as PPL holder - legal.
Pick up minnows - sell minnows for a profit.

[PilotDAR]

If you have advertised to connect with the prospective passenger, it is not legal.

If the owner o the plane has not insured it for this purpose, it is not legal.

If it's a rental airplane, on an OC, and that OC does not include you flying it for that purpose, it is not legal.

If the owner of the plane has not agreed that you use the plane for that purpose, it'll be ugly if you're caught.

Do you want to risk applying for your first OC job, with a violation on your record with TC for doing this?

[AirFrame]

I don't understand why this comes up so often on this forum.

Because flying is expensive and pilots are cheap.

Isn't this covered in CPL ground school?

I'm sure it is. But it'll be covered as "this isn't legal, except for these exceptions" and what they take away is "there are exceptions" and then later on once they've forgotten what they learned they come back trying to find out what the exceptions are. Or they just make their own exceptions, run a chisel charter, and end up binning it in northern Ontario with two convicts on board...

[Big Pistons Forever]

I'm a CPL holder who's trying to gain some flight hours from left and right until I can find a job in aviation. My questions is: Is it legal that I can bring passengers and charged them only for the fuel and rental of the plane without taking any profits?

You are a CPL holder which means that you should understand the regulations governing commercial flight operations. Your question is fully answered in the CAR's, why did you not look them up rather than post on Avcanada ?

From my POV your post tells me that you are too lazy to bother to learn how to use the regs; is this going to be your attitude for your flying career going forward ?

[rookiepilot]

I'm a CPL holder who's trying to gain some flight hours from left and right until I can find a job in aviation. My questions is: Is it legal that I can bring passengers and charged them only for the fuel and rental of the plane without taking any profits?

You are a CPL holder which means that you should understand the regulations governing commercial flight operations. Your question is fully answered in the CAR's, why did you not look them up rather than post on Avcanada ?

From my POV your post tells me that you are too lazy to bother to learn how to use the regs; is this going to be your attitude for your flying career going forward ?

+100

[SeptRepair]

You are a CPL holder which means that you should understand the regulations governing commercial flight operations. Your question is fully answered in the CAR's, why did you not look them up rather than post on Avcanada ?

From my POV your post tells me that you are too lazy to bother to learn how to use the regs; is this going to be your attitude for your flying career going forward ?

To add from a different perspective, although it may seem cut and dry to read the Cars and apply what you read, there comes a time when clarification is needed or others opinions are requested. The majority of us don't know the Cars inside and out, and trying to read through some of the bullshit that is in the Cars makes a guy just want to scream at the absurdity and legalese speak they come across. I went to school over 30yrs ago and still don't know the Cars 100%. I recently needed clarification on my interpretations of the Cars related to licensing, because what I had always believed had changed almost 20 yrs earlier and I never knew about it. It doesn't make me any less of a person, I just didn't know about the change because it was never on my radar until now. My steps in solving it were simple. I reached out to my local airworthiness office first, before I asked other people their thoughts. If the close people I knew didn't know, then perhaps post it on this forum. The complete ignorant response I got from transport made me want to reach through the computer and strangle the asshole on the other end. The arrogant tone and complete alphabet diarrhea they use to respond was appalling. The belittlement I received of not knowing the answer when reaching out, just reaffirmed my belief that those who sit in Transport have no idea what its like in the real world. I did a full stop on dealing with transport moving forward. Your response BPF is exactly the type of tone I got from Transport. So if a person asks about something that others already know and they don't, it doesn't speak well for the character of the person chastising the individual asking for help.

[PilotDAR]

I read the CAR's regularly. I have for decades. It makes me better at my job, helps me assure that something I'm thinking to do in a plane is actually legal, sometimes to assure something I post here is correct before I post, and, one of them is, in part, words I wrote about 25 years, ago, although the people at the Justice Department tweaked my proposed words just a little.

I find it's about how you ask the question, which is often an indicator of how you're thinking about the question. When I read: "I've read through section 4 of the CARs, and can't find the regulation about....", I think the person has put some thought and effort into learning. When I read: "Can I....." from person who say they hold a license in that realm, I'm less confident about the thought put in.

AvCanada is not a place from which permission can be obtained. At best, good advice can be found here, sometimes, other advice too. That advice will usually be associated with a CAR in the background somewhere. With a few very remote exceptions, there is no requirement to comply with the CAR's if you choose to not fly an aircraft. If you choose to fly a Canadian aircraft in Canada, it's the CAR's, you have no other choice.

Yeah, I have found that some TC people are awesome at chapter and verse of the CARs. I think it's 'cause they have to explain it to people too many times!

[rookiepilot]

You are a CPL holder which means that you should understand the regulations governing commercial flight operations. Your question is fully answered in the CAR's, why did you not look them up rather than post on Avcanada ?

From my POV your post tells me that you are too lazy to bother to learn how to use the regs; is this going to be your attitude for your flying career going forward ?

To add from a different perspective, although it may seem cut and dry to read the Cars and apply what you read, there comes a time when clarification is needed or others opinions are requested. The majority of us don't know the Cars inside and out, and trying to read through some of the bullshit that is in the Cars makes a guy just want to scream at the absurdity and legalese speak they come across. I went to school over 30yrs ago and still don't know the Cars 100%. I recently needed clarification on my interpretations of the Cars related to licensing, because what I had always believed had changed almost 20 yrs earlier and I never knew about it. It doesn't make me any less of a person, I just didn't know about the change because it was never on my radar until now. My steps in solving it were simple. I reached out to my local airworthiness office first, before I asked other people their thoughts. If the close people I knew didn't know, then perhaps post it on this forum. The complete ignorant response I got from transport made me want to reach through the computer and strangle the asshole on the other end. The arrogant tone and complete alphabet diarrhea they use to respond was appalling. The belittlement I received of not knowing the answer when reaching out, just reaffirmed my belief that those who sit in Transport have no idea what its like in the real world. I did a full stop on dealing with transport moving forward. Your response BPF is exactly the type of tone I got from Transport. So if a person asks about something that others already know and they don't, it doesn't speak well for the character of the person chastising the individual asking for help.

This is crap too. Original Poster knows the answer on that subject. Ain’t an obscure part of the CARS. Every half paying attention PPL student knows the answer.

Just doesn’t like the answer and comes here for permission.

[JasonE]

This is crap too. Original Poster knows the answer on that subject. Ain’t an obscure part of the CARS. Every half paying attention PPL student knows the answer.

Just doesn’t like the answer and comes here for permission.

Likely correct. I hold a PPL not even CPL and have a reasonable understanding and often wonder why this topic comes up every 6-12 months. Also I understand where to lookup the appropriate regs should I ever forget.

[photofly]

If it's a rental airplane, on an OC, and that OC does not include you flying it for that purpose, it is not legal.

While not arguing with the tenor of your post, I don't think that one is correct. A commercially registered airplane can still be used (with the owner's or owning organzation's permission) for private flights regardless of whether that owner/organization holds an OC that permits that airplane to be used for commercial purposes. If an airplane is used for a private flight (such as by a renter or by the owner for their own purposes for example) then an OC isn't required, and if the organization holds an OC for other purposes the conditions surrounding its issue aren't engaged by the private flight.

[Squaretail]

From my POV your post tells me that you are too lazy to bother to learn how to use the regs; is this going to be your attitude for your flying career going forward ?

To be fair BPF, I would say 90% of Pilots don’t know how to look up CARs references, and that includes a lot of the regulators.

CPL ground school from what I can see these days involves a lot about how to be a good right seater. Specific training that may not be applicable unless one gets on immediately with a 704 or 705 operation. Tbh the regulator behaves the same way, some times it’s like there’s only teal and red, and they treat the rest on the same scale. TC doesn’t bother with all the little people, or this sort of thing would be more common knowledge, unless someone gets killed, or order comes down from high to make some examples. Which get quickly forgotten about.

So I’m less put out someone didn’t know or care about the actual regulations regarding the matter, it’s more disappointing they were too lazy to use the forum’s search function to find that this topic has been covered to death.

[ICUP]

I'm a CPL holder who's trying to gain some flight hours from left and right until I can find a job in aviation. My questions is: Is it legal that I can bring passengers and charged them only for the fuel and rental of the plane without taking any profits?

If they are incidental to the flight then yes if you would have made the flight without passengers. Otherwise no.

Step 1 - Open the CARs online
Step 2 - Use CTRL + F and type "hire" or other relevant terms

Result:

401.28 (1) The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward unless the conditions set out in subsection (2), (3), (4) or (5), as applicable, are met.

(2) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is the owner or operator of the aircraft;

(b) conducts the flight for purposes other than hire or reward;

(c) carries passengers only incidentally to the purposes of the flight; and

(d) receives a reimbursement that

(i) is provided only by the passengers referred to in paragraph (c), and

(ii) is for the purpose of sharing the costs of fuel, oil and fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, as applicable.

(3) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from the holder’s employer for costs incurred in respect of a flight if the holder

(a) is employed on a full-time basis by the employer for purposes other than flying;

(b) conducts the flight on the employer’s business and the flight is incidental to the execution of the holder’s duties; and

(c) receives a reimbursement that

(i) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and that does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight, or

(ii) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from a charitable, not-for-profit or public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization if the reimbursement

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.

(5) The holder of a private pilot licence who is a farmer, as defined in section 700.01, may conduct aerial work involving the dispersal of products for agricultural purposes for hire or reward if the holder

(a) does not hold an air operator certificate;

(b) owns the aircraft that is used to disperse the products;

(c) has at least 150 hours of flight time as pilot-in-command, including at least 25 hours of flight time in the type of aircraft being used;

(d) ensures that no more than the minimum number of crew members needed to disperse the products is on board the aircraft;

(e) ensures that the dispersal takes place within 25 miles of the centre of the holder’s farm; and

(f) ensures that no dispersal is conducted within a control zone without the authority of the appropriate air traffic control unit.

As a holder of Commercial Pilot Licence you may:

(a) exercise the privileges of a private pilot licence — aeroplane;

(b) exercise the privileges of a VFR OTT rating;

(c) while engaged in providing a commercial air service by means of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings, act as

(i) pilot-in-command of the aeroplane, if the minimum flight crew document for the aeroplane specifies a minimum flight crew of one pilot, or

(ii) co-pilot of the aeroplane;

(d) if qualified as a flight instructor in accordance with section 425.21 of Standard 425 — Flight Training, conduct flight instruction; and

(e) exercise private pilot licence — aeroplane privileges until the end of the medical validity period specified for the private pilot licence.

You will not be providing a commercial air service, which means you will be exercising private pilot licence privileges and limitations, for which section 401.28 is part of.

air operator certificate means a certificate issued under Part VII that authorizes the holder of the certificate to operate a commercial air service; (certificat d’exploitation aérienne)

Hope this helps

[JasonE]

Seems pretty clear right?