Flat pay and unions...

[rudder]

We still have some elected reps (5) talking from the point of view of zero cost bargaining. They don’t always say it that way, but the theme is the same.

Membership. We would like XYZ. The 5. What are you willing to trade for that?

Membership. ENOUGH ALREADY with this “gains are off the table” BS!

But I completely agree with you.

Take a look at gains made in bargaining over last 3 years at Morningstar, Sunwing, and Transat in terms of raw pay rates. No matter which way you sliced it, average Pilot pay was going up on each property.

There should be no excuses at AC. Perhaps it will have to wait another 12 months, but the outcome should be the same. Average pilot pay at AC must go up in a meaningful fashion. It would behoove the employer to get out in front of the issue. And it would behoove ACPA to start sounding like a pilot union.

[Fanblade]

Who do you think is behind all this push for change? It’s not all, but by in large, it’s the next generation. Not so much those in their 20’s. It’s that experienced group in their mid to late 30’s. They have been at AC 5-15 years. They have previous union experience.

From the outside looking in, it has always seemed there were 2 (or 3) AC pilot silos. WB. NB. Then Rouge.

WB has generally done quite well. NB not so much. And then there was the Rouge ‘experiment’.

If there is disenchantment with status quo, it most likely emanates from the NB group or those stuck on flat pay (the year 1-15 pilots).

Most Pilot groups follow the agenda of the majority of the constituents. Who are the majority?

I think the silos are more like pre TA1 and post TA1. At the moment we are approaching 50/50.

Post TA1 is very pissed and about to exceed the pre TA1 membership.

The other silos you mention certainly exist but I don't think they are the reason for so much anger being generated. The anger is coming from the group that has taken the brunt of the TA1 changes. 4 year Flat pay. Reduced FO and RP wages. Second class pension. Then just told by the old guard to just suck it up

[rudder]

Then just told by the old guard to just suck it up

Ya. That will work.

And 800 more post TA1 about to be added.

Enjoy the final days in power.

ALPA dues currently 1.85%

[Inthrustwetrust]

Incoming ressection.. expect acpa to use it as excuse to not get any gains

[newlygrounded]

Incoming ressection.. expect acpa to use it as excuse to not get any gains

Think they'll ask for another 10% haircut?

[WellThatAgedWell]

Incoming ressection.. expect acpa to use it as excuse to not get any gains

Think they'll ask for another 10% haircut?

Oh there will be gainz... big mooning gainz for shareholders. My advice, mortgage your house, sell your assets and put it all into AC stock to hedge against the pay cut. As soon as they announce that fresh 10 percent cut the stock will moon and you wont even be bothered by the pay cut.

[powerbrian]

Apparently management is going around to ground schools telling them their number 1 priority is getting rid of flat pay…. Anyone else hear this?

[bob99]

If they wanted to, they would.

[rudder]

If they wanted to, they would.

Likely they want something in return……

[Babar350]

.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Take a look at gains made in bargaining over last 3 years at Morningstar, Sunwing, and Transat in terms of raw pay rates. No matter which way you sliced it, average Pilot pay was going up on each property.

I don't think you should look at Sunwing as a shining example of bargaining "gains." The CBA negotiated last year saw yearly MMG drop from 1000 to 900 (a 10% paycut right off the top), plus senior Captains are pay frozen for a number of years. Throw that in with increased inflation, and the Sunwing crew were definitely on the losing end of negotiations.

[newlygrounded]

If they wanted to, they would.

Likely they want something in return……

10 years of flat pay

[Malfunction]

There is talk of ALPA and ACPA working together on somthing. Any juicy rumors out there?

[BingBong]

Not really….ALPA Canada invited a few ACPA reps
Out to some IFALPA conference in Singapore….nothing super material other than a new MEC Chair getting to know an old one IMO. Maybe more to come but time will tell.

[altiplano]

Maybe you're downplaying the significance...

The corresponding newsletters absolutely indicate a change of relationship between the organizations.

Let's go... with support from WJ/JZ that's all that's needed to wrap this up and get Canadian pilots united and back on track. Let's get a roadshow and merger vote by fall. ALPA for AC negots 2023.

[Admiral Benson]

Does anyone think that AC's carrot of a 350k/year wide body job at 25 years of seniority is still enough for people to sign up for 4 years of flat pay in 2022? Seems like it's a much bigger ask with the cost of living and inflation where it's currently at. I know of a few people who were willing to make the 4 year sacrifice pre covid but are unable to make the move today if they had the opportunity due to the high cost of living.

[TheStig]

AC needs to improve quality of life if it hopes to attract the type of candidates it’s been accustomed to recruiting. The lifestyles (schedules and pay) of pilots on both wide body and narrow body fleets all all seniority levels has greatly decreased.

Demographics don’t favour OTS new hires, pilots flowing from Jazz are much younger, and have been since 2017/18, than pilots joining from the RCAF or other 705 operators. There have likely been a thousand pilots hired in their mid to late 20’s and early thirties in the past few years. The wide body Captain position will likely never be obtained by anyone who is looking to leave their current position as a jet Captain at another carrier.

Starting pay and lifestyle need to improve immensely at day one if AC wants to attract the best candidates.

[Dockjock]

We’re 30% behind Americans already and they’re entering a round of bargaining set to raise pay another 25-30%. Add the currency and tax rate differences and we’re basically half of what an American major pilot makes. Mexico pay with NYC cost of living is not a good combo. A 50% raise only gets us partly to where we need to be.

[WellThatAgedWell]

We’re 30% behind Americans already and they’re entering a round of bargaining set to raise pay another 25-30%. Add the currency and tax rate differences and we’re basically half of what an American major pilot makes. Mexico pay with NYC cost of living is not a good combo. A 50% raise only gets us partly to where we need to be.

Completely unrealistic. Also inflation is coming down a little bit. Air Canada pilots should accept a 7 percent raise next contract balance unchanged. I will borrow a line from the WEF. “You will own nothing and you will be happy”.

Ok just kidding. Anything under 50 percent raise is not competitive. Anything under 30 percent is a slap to the face, and likely that pilots will still be actively looking elsewhere for employment.

[Ash Ketchum]

Does anyone think that AC's carrot of a 350k/year wide body job at 25 years of seniority is still enough for people to sign up for 4 years of flat pay in 2022? Seems like it's a much bigger ask with the cost of living and inflation where it's currently at. I know of a few people who were willing to make the 4 year sacrifice pre covid but are unable to make the move today if they had the opportunity due to the high cost of living.

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

[schnitzel2k3]

Does anyone think that AC's carrot of a 350k/year wide body job at 25 years of seniority is still enough for people to sign up for 4 years of flat pay in 2022? Seems like it's a much bigger ask with the cost of living and inflation where it's currently at. I know of a few people who were willing to make the 4 year sacrifice pre covid but are unable to make the move today if they had the opportunity due to the high cost of living.

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

No flight crew position at AC should be less than 100k to start, with a significant and steady increase IMHO, considering no commuting policy and that the 3 bases are in the 3 of the top most expensive cities in North America.

That small change would see a massive jump in worthy applicants at both the feeder and OTS who have put off applying because they made more flying pipeline patrol 20 years ago.

It would also give Jazz room to bump of their starting salaries as they are compressed under AC.

[rudder]

Does anyone think that AC's carrot of a 350k/year wide body job at 25 years of seniority is still enough for people to sign up for 4 years of flat pay in 2022? Seems like it's a much bigger ask with the cost of living and inflation where it's currently at. I know of a few people who were willing to make the 4 year sacrifice pre covid but are unable to make the move today if they had the opportunity due to the high cost of living.

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

No flight crew position at AC should be less than 100k to start, with a significant and steady increase IMHO, considering no commuting policy and that the 3 bases are in the 3 of the top most expensive cities in North America.

That small change would see a massive jump in worthy applicants at both the feeder and OTS who have put off applying because they made more flying pipeline patrol 20 years ago.

It would also give Jazz room to bump of their starting salaries as they are compressed under AC.

Let’s extrapolate that idea.

AC should interview all pilots to be hired at both mainline and Jazz. AC decides who will attend which PIT course.

Tenure for pay starts on Day 1 regardless of property.

Seniority accrual would involve discussion between ACPA, ALPA, and AC.

College kids assigned only to Jazz PIT courses. Make movement to AC contingent upon being left seat at Jazz (yes, that would take several years if starting at Jazz with 250 hours).

ATPL pilots would either be assigned to AC PIT or Jazz PIT based on staffing requirements at Jazz for DEC or rapid upgrade (upgrade planned prior to first recurrent training cycle).

AC year 1 FO/RP pay (salary) should be no less than Jazz year 1 CA pay. Same for any year at AC that remains salary vs formula pay.

Is this likely? No. But status quo is going to be problematic for the entire AC system. Time to start to think outside the box. US legacy carriers are light years ahead of where AC and Jazz are on this.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am in the same boat. Honestly I don't think I can afford to make the move to AC unless upgrades go very junior and I can supplement my income off savings/line of credit until the upgrade.

No flight crew position at AC should be less than 100k to start, with a significant and steady increase IMHO, considering no commuting policy and that the 3 bases are in the 3 of the top most expensive cities in North America.

That small change would see a massive jump in worthy applicants at both the feeder and OTS who have put off applying because they made more flying pipeline patrol 20 years ago.

It would also give Jazz room to bump of their starting salaries as they are compressed under AC.

Let’s extrapolate that idea.

AC should interview all pilots to be hired at both mainline and Jazz. AC decides who will attend which PIT course.

Tenure for pay starts on Day 1 regardless of property.

Seniority accrual would involve discussion between ACPA, ALPA, and AC.

College kids assigned only to Jazz PIT courses. Make movement to AC contingent upon being left seat at Jazz (yes, that would take several years if starting at Jazz with 250 hours).

ATPL pilots would either be assigned to AC PIT or Jazz PIT based on staffing requirements at Jazz for DEC or rapid upgrade (upgrade planned prior to first recurrent training cycle).

AC year 1 FO/RP pay (salary) should be no less than Jazz year 1 CA pay. Same for any year at AC that remains salary vs formula pay.

Is this likely? No. But status quo is going to be problematic for the entire AC system. Time to start to think outside the box. US legacy carriers are light years ahead of where AC and Jazz are on this.

What's Jazz' skipper salary these days? I'm way out of touch with the regional stuff after COVID.

[rudder]

What's Jazz' skipper salary these days? I'm way out of touch with the regional stuff after COVID.

At 82.5 credits per block month (monthly block target = min monthly pay guarantee) would be around $85k for a year 1 CA. Not saying that is enough, but that is the current number.

I could see mainline salary changed to just 2 years (to allow AC to continue to control PIT equipment assignments available and freezes). But salary year 1 at least $85k and year 2 at least $90k. Formula pay after that. Use another course right in year 3 to get a higher paying assignment if desired.

[Cavalier44]

Let’s extrapolate that idea.

AC should interview all pilots to be hired at both mainline and Jazz. AC decides who will attend which PIT course.

Tenure for pay starts on Day 1 regardless of property.

Seniority accrual would involve discussion between ACPA, ALPA, and AC.

College kids assigned only to Jazz PIT courses. Make movement to AC contingent upon being left seat at Jazz (yes, that would take several years if starting at Jazz with 250 hours).

ATPL pilots would either be assigned to AC PIT or Jazz PIT based on staffing requirements at Jazz for DEC or rapid upgrade (upgrade planned prior to first recurrent training cycle).

AC year 1 FO/RP pay (salary) should be no less than Jazz year 1 CA pay. Same for any year at AC that remains salary vs formula pay.

Is this likely? No. But status quo is going to be problematic for the entire AC system. Time to start to think outside the box. US legacy carriers are light years ahead of where AC and Jazz are on this.

Interesting idea Rudder, but I think it fails to consider the experience level of OTS applicants to Air Canada.

Plenty of AC OTS applicants have significant experience (5,000 - 10,000 hour range), previous jet PIC, Airbus and Boeing type ratings, previous widebody experience, etc. A number of them are captains at their present employers. No disrespect to Jazz, but these kind of candidates are overqualified to be employed there as a DEC. What does Jazz offer me, for example, that remaining at my present employer doesn't? If I wanted to work there, I'd apply there, rather than applying to Air Canada.

I think you'd run into the issue of disincentivizing experienced candidates from applying to Air Canada if they thought it would be a 50/50 chance that they'd end up being placed at Jazz for an indeterminate period of time, depending on what the staffing requirements were.

I do agree with you that the entire flat play system needs to be revamped or discarded. No one should be put in the position of trying to figure out how to make ends meet after taking a 50% pay cut (or worse!) to go from their present employer to Air Canada.