Watch out for your wingman!

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rookiepilot
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Watch out for your wingman!

Post by rookiepilot »

https://www.planeandpilotmag.com/news/t ... de-midair/

2 skydiving planes in formation collided. Everyone survived. (From 2013)
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lownslow
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Re: Watch out for your wingman!

Post by lownslow »

I thought this was going to be about flying a formation low and over and your lead tries to fly you into a tree…
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pelmet
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Re: Watch out for your wingman!

Post by pelmet »

I have a had a close call or two doing this. Formation skydiving on the jump run was my introduction to formation flying with a quick briefing. I learned quickly that you have to be willing to be aggressive with the throttle in order to maintain spacing. And don’t lose sight of the other aircraft.

The aircraft with the higher stall speed should be the lead.
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Re: Watch out for your wingman!

Post by AirFrame »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:25 am I have a had a close call or two doing this. Formation skydiving on the jump run was my introduction to formation flying with a quick briefing.
Probably the worst way to learn formation, although there are many bad ways.
I learned quickly that you have to be willing to be aggressive with the throttle in order to maintain spacing. And don’t lose sight of the other aircraft.

The aircraft with the higher stall speed should be the lead.
Lest anyone think this is a good primer on formation flying, the first two statements are correct but the last one is not.
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pelmet
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Re: Watch out for your wingman!

Post by pelmet »

AirFrame wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:37 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:25 am I have a had a close call or two doing this. Formation skydiving on the jump run was my introduction to formation flying with a quick briefing.
Probably the worst way to learn formation, although there are many bad ways.
I learned quickly that you have to be willing to be aggressive with the throttle in order to maintain spacing. And don’t lose sight of the other aircraft.

The aircraft with the higher stall speed should be the lead.
Lest anyone think this is a good primer on formation flying, the first two statements are correct but the last one is not.
I don't want to guarantee that my third statement is correct for all formation flying as my overall experience is low. But the statement does come from real world experience and applies to intentionally reduced airspeed formation flying.

It was two Cessna's with a lead C182 equipped with a Horten STOL kit flying lead and a Cessna 180 with no wing modification(higher stall speed) flying chase. I was in the chase plane. In skydiving ops, the aircraft try to be at a fairly slow speed on jump run. It doesn't have to be the edge of a stall but it is desirable to have less than full power and less than cruise speed if possible, especially when jumpers are climbing into position outside the aircraft in order to be ready to leave the aircraft at the same time as the jumpers in the other aircraft.

In my case as the chase pilot(with the higher stall speed), I had 100% concentration on maintaining a fairly close but reasonably safe distance from the other aircraft during the jump run. One admission here.....these were junky skydiving aircraft and the stall warning was not working on my aircraft(but one could be flying formation in an aircraft without an artificial stall warning).

The lead aircraft got slow but I was unaware of it as I was not looking at my airspeed. His aircraft may have been handling just fine and mine was as well until......it wasn't. All of a sudden, I noticed the other aircraft moving upward but realized quickly that I was going downward as I had stalled. No buffet, no wing drop. Aerodynamics affected by skydivers ?.....Perhaps. I actually tried to maintain control and in formation but lost sight of the lead and then suddenly, all the skydivers had left. So I just lowered the nose and descended quickly and communicating with the other aircraft.

But I realized that if the lead aircraft had the higher stall speed, assuming the lead pilot maintained a speed above the stall, the chase aircraft with the lower speed would have not stalled.

So I stick by my suggestion for formation flying at speeds close to the stall anyways. Chase aircraft should have the lower stall speed.

And yes...proper briefings and serviceable stall warning systems are preferable.
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Re: Watch out for your wingman!

Post by AirFrame »

In this edge case, yes, having you in lead and the other aircraft following might have made up for the lack of formation training and a proper briefing.

In general, you want the more capable aircraft (more manoeuvrable, more power, etc.) to be in the back because the lead aircraft is just flying a path through the sky, the wingman/wingmen need to do what's necessary to stay in position. Sometimes that means flying faster or slower than lead, and doing it quickly, so you want that capability. Most formation work is done at or "near" cruise speeds, and stall isn't a factor. In this particular situation, where the plan was to operate at or very close to stall speed, having the 180 in front would have given the 182 following margin to operate above or below the speed of lead.

But there may have been other factors for putting the 182 in front, maybe that pilot didn't have any formation experience. In that case a proper briefing would have included a discussion of operating speeds and minimums... Factoring in the higher stall speed of the 180, plus a safety margin. The 180 would normally drop 'divers at the slowest comfortable speed the 180 can fly, so there's no reason for the 182 to slow below that speed to drop theirs, even if it can. And doing it in formation, one would really want a safety margin "just in case".

And finally, a wingman should be recognizing what's going on with their airplane without reference to instruments... or with a (very) quick glance at one instrument at a time if a check is needed. If they're getting that close to stall unexpectedly, they should be calling for a speed increase.
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Re: Watch out for your wingman!

Post by pelmet »

Possibly. The idea of the more capable aircraft as chase makes sense.But sometimes one aircraft may be more capable in one aspect and less capable in other areas when it comes to disimlar types. Something to take into consideration.

I suppose each unique situation has to be considered separately. When the group of guys who practice formation as a club have various types, lead/chase planes are going to vary. Same with photoshoots and warbird. Perhaps also experience levels.

Perhaps the best conclusion is what you stated about the better performer as chase is the nice ideal starting point and when there is a deviation from that(which would only be for a specific reason), the potential consequences should be discussed. This could include several areas including the low speed regime.
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