Anyone know where I can get info on the pilot requirements for these Contrail contracts?
Thanks
Contrails Pilot Requirements
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
The company you are going to work for will have the requirements for compliance with their contrail audit.
Contrail, themselves, do audits for their customers, and then, upon approval, a charter company will be given the requirements.
They are usually relatively high, and, quite frankly, usually quite justified.
Contrail, themselves, do audits for their customers, and then, upon approval, a charter company will be given the requirements.
They are usually relatively high, and, quite frankly, usually quite justified.
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Out of Control
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Elbrto
did you just say that the contrail requirements are justified? What justifies requirements that high, they are rediculous. They are gonna have to change, as th industry continues to move nobody with the time they require wil be around. Air Canada and West jet require less time than Contrail. There are not gonna be that many guys sticking around long enough.
You are the first person I have ever heard say that their requiremenrts are justified.[/quote]
did you just say that the contrail requirements are justified? What justifies requirements that high, they are rediculous. They are gonna have to change, as th industry continues to move nobody with the time they require wil be around. Air Canada and West jet require less time than Contrail. There are not gonna be that many guys sticking around long enough.
You are the first person I have ever heard say that their requiremenrts are justified.[/quote]
The bad news is time flies. The good news is you’re a pilot.
Nope, things are not going to have to change drastically. 600 pilots was the number that Air Canada was looking at hiring, and I believe that that was over 5 years. I am not sure what the hiring is looking like at WJ. Not all 2500+hour pilots are going to, or want to move in the Air Canada/WestJet direction.They are gonna have to change, as th industry continues to move nobody with the time they require wil be around. Air Canada and West jet require less time than Contrail. There are not gonna be that many guys sticking around long enough.
If the Contrail requirements do go down (which I don't think will happen), I believe they will only go down a little bit. Not a whole lot as many low-timers in the industry would like to see. Oil companies largely drive Contrail requirements. If oil companies are putting employees that have a collective net worth FAR above the worth of the airplane and flight crew (and possibly the company), they want someone competant in that left (and right) seat. In regards to experience, I reference you to this post by Check Pilot, the third entry in the topic.
As unfair as Contrail may seem, the people with the money, much like in life, set the rules of the game. Don't like the rules? Take your ball and go home.
JUGGS-A waypoint in Idaho too!
The requirements are by aircraft type or class and are usually pretty similar between companies though I have heard different.
The problem is that there is a great variance on the logged experience shown by many low time pilots....not that anyone on these forums would ever log anything but the proper time or on a machine in which they had not been properly checked out on...so the times have to account for the differences. I believe Contrail will look at the companies training program but you only have to read some of the forums to realize that many of the pilots want to use their jobs as training...for example telling a new guy to turn off the autopilot and hand fly.
I expect flak from this but having been on the other side, in management you would not believe the lies that new pilots tell when it comes to experience.
The problem is that there is a great variance on the logged experience shown by many low time pilots....not that anyone on these forums would ever log anything but the proper time or on a machine in which they had not been properly checked out on...so the times have to account for the differences. I believe Contrail will look at the companies training program but you only have to read some of the forums to realize that many of the pilots want to use their jobs as training...for example telling a new guy to turn off the autopilot and hand fly.
I expect flak from this but having been on the other side, in management you would not believe the lies that new pilots tell when it comes to experience.
Contrial operates on the golden rules principle, He who has the gold, Rules.
I have not been involved with an actual audit by Contrail, but if they are like any others I have been involved with, Contrail simply records the experience level of the pilots working for an air carrier their client(s) are interested in and make recommendations to those clients. If the phone does not ring, you probibally got a poor recommend.
I have not been involved with an actual audit by Contrail, but if they are like any others I have been involved with, Contrail simply records the experience level of the pilots working for an air carrier their client(s) are interested in and make recommendations to those clients. If the phone does not ring, you probibally got a poor recommend.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
Contrail requirements
People insist on saying "Contrail Requirements". Although he may make recommendations, those are NOT HIS REQUIREMENTS, folks, did you not read the comments made by Juggs and Oldtimer? Which part of the message do you not get??
Legacy
I believe the contrail captain requirement is 3000ish West jet fo 2500. That is the paralell that I was drwing.
At 3000 you can stay captain on your metro or move onto the bigger aircraft and there are alot of guys wanting to make that jump.
Unless you want to fly a metro for the rest of your career you are gonna have ot be an fo again. I know that the fo on a 37 requires more than on a metro. But do you get my point.
wow you really need to chill so hostile
I believe the contrail captain requirement is 3000ish West jet fo 2500. That is the paralell that I was drwing.
At 3000 you can stay captain on your metro or move onto the bigger aircraft and there are alot of guys wanting to make that jump.
Unless you want to fly a metro for the rest of your career you are gonna have ot be an fo again. I know that the fo on a 37 requires more than on a metro. But do you get my point.
wow you really need to chill so hostile
The bad news is time flies. The good news is you’re a pilot.
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i aint gettin rich
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I love how contrail desides these numbers.. Good job buddy.
A guy not qualified to fly captain for companies because of your brite ideas.. But he can go to other companies and be captain, never have a problem or give anyone any doubt that he cant handle the resonsibility or comitment, then move on to a airline with less requirements.
I find it stupid that when contrail finally opens there eyes and realizes there are no more 3000 hour guys (etc..) for there captain spots they will tell these oil companies that 2500hours guys are just as good. some even have time on type. WOOOO HOOOOO
NICE guy.. at your will im automatically "qualified" even though nothing in my training or qualifications have changed....
I say Linch the bastard that sets these hours
A guy not qualified to fly captain for companies because of your brite ideas.. But he can go to other companies and be captain, never have a problem or give anyone any doubt that he cant handle the resonsibility or comitment, then move on to a airline with less requirements.
I find it stupid that when contrail finally opens there eyes and realizes there are no more 3000 hour guys (etc..) for there captain spots they will tell these oil companies that 2500hours guys are just as good. some even have time on type. WOOOO HOOOOO
NICE guy.. at your will im automatically "qualified" even though nothing in my training or qualifications have changed....
I say Linch the bastard that sets these hours
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i aint gettin rich
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YODAN
Sure contrail suggests stuff and oil companies tell him what they want.. so then why the hell do they go to contrail then anyway....if they ultimately deside then they dont contrail..I do feel contrail has a bit more say in convincing oil companies whats good and whats not..
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Doctor Evil
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Is the idea here that requiring a Captain to have 3000 hrs is somehow unreasonable and that pilots with those hours are high timers?I flew for a charter company a few years before Contrail was on the scene, and at that time most oil companies had their own flight crew requirements.One company actually required Captains to have 5000TT,1500MPIC and some sim training.It made for a pain in the ass for the schedule person but like someone said earlier.Can you really criticize a company that is going to put a number of it's employees on a plane to fly into shitty oil field strip in the middle of winter for wanting a couple of 1500 hr wonders in the front end?
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i aint gettin rich
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No its the fact that times change. If an Airline considers a guy with 1000 to 2500hrs safe to be right seat on an A/C that holds 140 people, then why so hi still for those same type of ppl ccaptaining an A/C they have been F/O'ing for 500-600 hours..
Those requirements for 5000 etc... that was the past.. I do love our history and the old timers that paved the way.. But come on ppl why do you insist on bringing up "the way things used to be" what business does that... things change..Yes i understand the good ol days were hard times.. I understand you had topay your dues.. yadda yadda yadda.....
Progression my friends...progression..
lets think about the now and the future. Lets remember the past not relive it...
There is nothing worng with anyone I know that has 2100-2700 hours captaining a twin turbine they have been on for 500+ hours.
Maybe Im the only one that knows good pilots
Those requirements for 5000 etc... that was the past.. I do love our history and the old timers that paved the way.. But come on ppl why do you insist on bringing up "the way things used to be" what business does that... things change..Yes i understand the good ol days were hard times.. I understand you had topay your dues.. yadda yadda yadda.....
Progression my friends...progression..
lets think about the now and the future. Lets remember the past not relive it...
There is nothing worng with anyone I know that has 2100-2700 hours captaining a twin turbine they have been on for 500+ hours.
Maybe Im the only one that knows good pilots
Contrail makes suggestions to companies. The suggested time requirements vary with aircraft type. The times are starting to get unrealistic, but if the requirements always stay the same, contrail would be out of a job. I think you will start to see these requirements start to drop, as some companies are unable to staff the aircraft with contrail approved pilots.
I think the difference between being Captain of a twin turboprop doing charters and being rhs in an airliner is that one is significantly easier than the other. Guess which one. Hell a 300-hr driver could fly a jet after a month long groundschool and 14 sim sessions, but it does take practical experience to bring a king air into Bobquin Lake or some other such place. Contrail recommendations exist for the protection of highly valuable oil company workers and executives. No amount of complaining is going to change this!
I think H2ZP had a good point.
Contrail bases its times, particularily PIC from oil industry stats in the US.
This wont be great for the new guys, but it just might mean as the pilot pool of experience dries up, working conditions, benefits, and pay may well increase for those who fly oil company charters.
Part of the problem with inexperienced pilots is there attitude....the kind of attitude that one can effectively fly a heavy jet after some ground school and a bit of flying training....
Contrail bases its times, particularily PIC from oil industry stats in the US.
This wont be great for the new guys, but it just might mean as the pilot pool of experience dries up, working conditions, benefits, and pay may well increase for those who fly oil company charters.
Part of the problem with inexperienced pilots is there attitude....the kind of attitude that one can effectively fly a heavy jet after some ground school and a bit of flying training....
The supply of 2500 to 3500 hr pilots is not going to disappear anytime soon. The hiring cycle only lowers the number of candidates per "good" job from 20 to 10 or 10 to 5, depending on the job and requirements. Every day, many pilots in the north in Canada are completing thier 3000th hour, probably 40% of the ATPL and Commecial pilots that are employed by 703-705 and 600 series operators are doing 1000 hours a year.
This isn't negative, just a reality check. If WS lowers thier mins to 2500, it does not mean that there are no pilots left for other jobs. If you don't believe me, just wait for another cycle to run. The mistake that lots of pilots make is to believe they've missed the boat if they haven't made it to a jet within 5 years or even 10.
This isn't negative, just a reality check. If WS lowers thier mins to 2500, it does not mean that there are no pilots left for other jobs. If you don't believe me, just wait for another cycle to run. The mistake that lots of pilots make is to believe they've missed the boat if they haven't made it to a jet within 5 years or even 10.
In case you failed to notice, elbarto, I was agreeing with you. But you, strangely, seem to be straddling the fence...or perhaps just exhibiting the sad, ubiquitous disdain of a manager for pilots in general (or at least any and all with less experience than you).
I feel the same, and stated as such. But then you go on to stateThey are usually relatively high, and, quite frankly, usually quite justified.
So which is it? Is it that it takes experience to fly oil charters, or experience to fly as copilot in an airliner? Of course we both know it takes some form of experience to do either. But it has been proven, worldwide, that a highschooler can be taken from zero to rhs airline inside of 2 yrs, while I think we can agree an oil company executive would feel a little bit squeamish hopping into an A100 captained by someone with like experience. Like I said, I was agreeing with you (at least at first).Part of the problem with inexperienced pilots is there [sic] attitude....the kind of attitude that one can effectively fly a heavy jet after some ground school and a bit of flying training....
No matter, you're "management" so that pretty much clears up your view on pilots- nobody is qualified enough (when its time to discuss the requirements), but anyone can do the job (when its time to discuss pay).I expect flak [sic] from this but having been on the other side, in management you would not believe the lies that new pilots tell when it comes to experience.
I am surprised that you know both the pay scale and the requirements our company has.
My point, or at least the one I was trying to make, is that sometimes the requirements have to be h igh. And quite frankly, while flying requirements are usually a go/no item, they only account for about 50% of what we look for in a new pilot.
Our company has not training bonds, and, I have been told, a wage scale with benefits far higher than the industry average. Average age of pilots is 35. FO's are considered an important part of the flight crew, and, as such, we do ask for considerable experience, but , as you already seem to know our pay scale, I a sure you will agree, our FO's get paid more than most of the Charter company's captains. And it is not lip service, when we say we promote from within.
My point, or at least the one I was trying to make, is that sometimes the requirements have to be h igh. And quite frankly, while flying requirements are usually a go/no item, they only account for about 50% of what we look for in a new pilot.
Our company has not training bonds, and, I have been told, a wage scale with benefits far higher than the industry average. Average age of pilots is 35. FO's are considered an important part of the flight crew, and, as such, we do ask for considerable experience, but , as you already seem to know our pay scale, I a sure you will agree, our FO's get paid more than most of the Charter company's captains. And it is not lip service, when we say we promote from within.
IMHO, Contrail is not the only game in town, they simply are probably the largest, most aggressive and advertise more than others so the have become the benchmark The only way to really get a definative answer is to ask someone at Contrails and they brobably wont say. From what I have read from different respondents, a little bit of everything ae factors. Certainly insulation from possible lawsuits are what started it all but according to their web site, they provide a multitude of services to the oil patch or anyone else who wants to avail themselves of their services. If you own an airplane and want to hire a good pilot but know didly squat about airplanes, they will seeto it that you get a good one. If you have an airplane or a flight department, they will give an independent assesment of the operation. When I was with NAA, we went through a couple of these on a regular basis with different consultants. Some had high requirements and some didn't.It all depends on what their clients want.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
elbarto, I don't know your pay scale, what company you manage, or anything about you. All I can say is keep it up, if you are above average and willing to pay a decent wage then you are most certainly in the small, small minority.
Many, if not most charter companies try to get you to come pre-trained, pay your own training, or sign a ridiculous loyalty committment stretching in some cases up to 4 yrs. The theme is to prevent you from leaving, instead of making you want to stay. But we've been down this road way too many times so let's just leave it at that.
Many, if not most charter companies try to get you to come pre-trained, pay your own training, or sign a ridiculous loyalty committment stretching in some cases up to 4 yrs. The theme is to prevent you from leaving, instead of making you want to stay. But we've been down this road way too many times so let's just leave it at that.
