VFR clearance question

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scdriver
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VFR clearance question

Post by scdriver »

ATC folks, question for you guys. If there’s any tower controllers who would like to chime in, much appreciated. Here’s my question: what is expected from pilots when a controller says “cleared direct “X” on course?” on a vfr departure route if there’s an intermediate waypoint after “X” and before destination. I.e. the departure is heading 270 to 1500 then waypoint “X” to “Z” then clear the zone, and prior to reaching 1500 you’re given “cleared direct “X” on course.” Is the expectation to go from “X” to destination or continue to “Z” before proceeding to destination??
Thanks!
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photofly
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by photofly »

Can you post the route you have in mind?
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scdriver
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by scdriver »

photofly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:01 pm Can you post the route you have in mind?
Sure, specifically the sandheads dep out of YVR, but question applies to any departure route with multiple waypoints.

The Sandheads for those unfamiliar is heading 160 to 2000ft then sandheads - flounder.
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scdriver
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by scdriver »

photofly wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:01 pm Can you post the route you have in mind?
Sure, specifically the sandheads dep out of YVR, but question applies to any departure route with multiple waypoints.

The Sandheads for those unfamiliar is heading 160 to 2000ft then sandheads - flounder.
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Pratt X 3
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by Pratt X 3 »

scdriver wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:55 pm ATC folks, question for you guys. If there’s any tower controllers who would like to chime in, much appreciated. Here’s my question: what is expected from pilots when a controller says “cleared direct “X” on course?” on a vfr departure route if there’s an intermediate waypoint after “X” and before destination. I.e. the departure is heading 270 to 1500 then waypoint “X” to “Z” then clear the zone, and prior to reaching 1500 you’re given “cleared direct “X” on course.” Is the expectation to go from “X” to destination or continue to “Z” before proceeding to destination??
Thanks!
"On course" means the route cleared and that would be what they are expecting you to fly. So in this case "X" then "Z" then destination. If they want you to go direct destination after "X", then they would say "Cleared direct "X" then direct destination"; eliminating "Z".

In your real-life example, if they said "Cleared direct Sandheads, on course" you should fly direct Sandheads, then Flounder, then destination.
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scdriver
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by scdriver »

Pratt X 3 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:55 pm
scdriver wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:55 pm ATC folks, question for you guys. If there’s any tower controllers who would like to chime in, much appreciated. Here’s my question: what is expected from pilots when a controller says “cleared direct “X” on course?” on a vfr departure route if there’s an intermediate waypoint after “X” and before destination. I.e. the departure is heading 270 to 1500 then waypoint “X” to “Z” then clear the zone, and prior to reaching 1500 you’re given “cleared direct “X” on course.” Is the expectation to go from “X” to destination or continue to “Z” before proceeding to destination??
Thanks!
"On course" means the route cleared and that would be what they are expecting you to fly. So in this case "X" then "Z" then destination. If they want you to go direct destination after "X", then they would say "Cleared direct "X" then direct destination"; eliminating "Z".

In your real-life example, if they said "Cleared direct Sandheads, on course" you should fly direct Sandheads, then Flounder, then destination.
Got it, thanks. Seems a bit ambiguous based on differing opinions from people I’ve asked.
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WANP
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by WANP »

Many, me included, wouldn't even know what sandheads is.


Be much better if they just issued a heading to fly, and for how many nm they would like you to remain on that heading.

For example, Cessna 210 GHI please turn to heading 080 and remain on that heading for 10 nm.
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by 16SidedOffice »

If I gave you direct sandheads and on course, I would expect that you would turn onto your own course towards destination after Sandheads. If I wanted you to continue to Sandheads, then Flounder before proceeding on your own course I wouldn't say anything at all. Did one of the grumps make a comment about it or something?
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airway
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by airway »

There are times when ATC doesn't know that they are creating a conundrum for you. I think the letter of the law would require you to go to "Z" before the destination, but what if "Z" is in the opposite direction to your destination? Next time it happens just clarify with the controller. You might want to see what a different controller says as well. :)

There is a similar disagreement between pilots, transport, and controllers in YYC, that has been discussed for more than 30 years.
The SID departure procedure off 17R says "no right turns below 4300". Occasionally, ATC will give you a takeoff clearance including right turn after T/O. The SID does not specify why right turns below 4300' are not allowed. Could be due to noise abatement (which ATC can't cancel) or obstacle clearance for downtown Calgary. Some say you can turn below 4300' if it is VMC, some say you can't.
I turn above 4300' always.




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scdriver
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Re: VFR clearance question

Post by scdriver »

16SidedOffice wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:33 pm If I gave you direct sandheads and on course, I would expect that you would turn onto your own course towards destination after Sandheads. If I wanted you to continue to Sandheads, then Flounder before proceeding on your own course I wouldn't say anything at all. Did one of the grumps make a comment about it or something?
One the grumps didn’t like it very much that’s right. “On course” to me has always meant proceed at your own discretion for vfr flying, and that impression has been given by almost every controller I’ve talked to but I guess some have a different idea. Thanks for the input!
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