Fanblade wrote: ↑Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:46 pm
Take a peek at the pilot wages across the boarder. Not to compare with Canadian wages. Rather to compare the wages of US full service airlines vs Fedex and UPS.
Let's do that. Using Airline Pilot Central, here are the hourly rates for 12 year B767 Captains ($ USD):
Delta - $296
FedEx - $326
Atlas Air Cargo - $196
As you can see, FedEx is the highest paid. But before you get all excited, remember that FedEx is more than a cargo airline - it offers a full, end-to-end product from pick-up to delivery, which not only attracts a premium but also differentiates itself from a pure cargo airline. Next, is the Delta Airlines passenger guy at $296 and finally, the pure cargo pilot at Atlas at $196.
Delta - Atlas is the best comparison for the reasons mentioned above and you will see that the Atlas pilots are working at a 1/3 discount to what a mainline airline B767 Captain is making. AC's proposed 10% reduction from a mainline B767 rate for an all cargo operation compared to the mainline passenger operation is a good deal in comparison. So this US only comparison of relative wages (mainline versus cargo), as you suggested, further undermines your point.
So, in addition to do some reading about the history of our pay structure, perhaps take a little time and so some research about what is going on across the border too.
Follow up questions:
1) Now that Atlas pays more than any AC pilot including the mighty 777 skipper, will the corporation acknowledge that our pay is a joke?
2) As Rivo and AC are partners in "door to door" service, can NHL pilots compare themselves to FedEx?
3) How does the airline afford a new 777 operation without a 10% paycut? I thought it was essential to keep costs down & being competitive? Are we going to go out of business now?
"Sceptical" is likely in management currently laughing that he sold a paycut when cargo was the most profitable in its history and AC was already doing it. I'm sure his bonus bought him a new boat
I'm sure the Corp knows how good they got it with pay rates but likely won't stop them for coming up with lots of reasons why they can't pay more.
Lots of pilots got their head in the sand on what is happening with labor groups around the globe. Likely just come up with reasons why they are non comparables.
That is the tried and true defense
---------- ADS -----------
Last edited by aeronauticaldisaster on Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:51 am
What will be the B777F pay rates?
I believe he is referring to if there will be a 10% paycut or not
Pilots already agreed to a paycut on the 767 and the pay could go to arbitration. The company has a strong case for giving the pilots another 10% paycut to fly the exact airplane they are already flying.
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:51 am
What will be the B777F pay rates?
I believe he is referring to if there will be a 10% paycut or not
Pilots already agreed to a paycut on the 767 and the pay could go to arbitration. The company has a strong case for giving the pilots another 10% paycut to fly the exact airplane they are already flying.
Well done ACPA
Exactly.
When is a 767 not a 767 (at AC)? When you paint Rouge on the side or fill the cabin with cargo.
LH pilots can bid back and forth between LH mainline and LH Cargo, but at a discount. Same master seniority list.
Cathay pilots can also move between mainline and cargo. Same thing, at a discount.
In both cases, the pay at cargo is less than 90% of mainline rates.
As to your other point, "why don't we compare with them on wages and other contract conditions too?" I wouldn't want to compare ourselves to Cathay right now at all. They just had their total compensation package permanently slashed by 40%.
So where did this guy go?
Looks like a 98% vote strike vote from Lufthansa pilots
I think he got the old heave-ho along with the Former MEC Chair who was more worried about the company than running his union. They both loved concessionary deals with cargo & "best fit"
The Former MEC Chair loves to troll the forums as Johnny767 or ReturnoftheMike. He still makes an appearance from time to time to support his cronies that are YVR Reps who are still working hard for the company on another forum
Johnny767 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:16 pm
Where did all the loud mouth, 250 hour Jazz experts go?
That explains everything, a degree in Lesbian Dance Studies - that's a joke relax. Joking aside it is the sense of entitlement oozing from certain demographics. You knew full well you would be on the CWIPP pension plan, you knew the payscale, however you brown nose your way through the interview process then do nothing but bitch and moan.
Both the VP of Flt Ops and the MEC Chair have been laid off, neither of which are enjoying having to make these choices.
I know you are all proud of those "Participation" medals, but this is not all about you.
The Corporation is in survival mode, 100 Pilots working for 10% less isn't the end of the world. If 600 layoffs, reduced hour MOA and the Cargo LOU is the worse we see in this mess, we will be extremely lucky.
Too bad he was too dumb to see the precedent he has set in pay for his "brothers & sisters" and too short sighted to see the inevitable rebound of travel that puts the pilot profession at a premium
The Former MEC Chair loves to troll the forums as Johnny767 or ReturnoftheMike. He still makes an appearance from time to time to support his cronies that are YVR Reps who are still working hard for the company on another forum
That explains everything, a degree in Lesbian Dance Studies - that's a joke relax. Joking aside it is the sense of entitlement oozing from certain demographics. You knew full well you would be on the CWIPP pension plan, you knew the payscale, however you brown nose your way through the interview process then do nothing but bitch and moan.
Both the VP of Flt Ops and the MEC Chair have been laid off, neither of which are enjoying having to make these choices.
I know you are all proud of those "Participation" medals, but this is not all about you.
The Corporation is in survival mode, 100 Pilots working for 10% less isn't the end of the world. If 600 layoffs, reduced hour MOA and the Cargo LOU is the worse we see in this mess, we will be extremely lucky.
Too bad he was too dumb to see the precedent he has set in pay for his "brothers & sisters" and too short sighted to see the inevitable rebound of travel that puts the pilot profession at a premium
Not just the YVR reps, the YUL company man, and the mighty 50 pilot YWG base too. They’ve mastered base politics to remain in power, it’s a sad state we find ourselves in.
Your nefarious antics will not be viewed upon positively by the corp if this rebellion continues. You have been duly notified. I will hand over any documentation of betrayal directly to my overlords as I have done in the past. Don't let history repeat itself.
As the company Rises Higher it is imperative the association supports management's ambitions to fund our future through cost cutting measures. Pilots are the make or break point for a complex operation but you simpleton surfs will never comprehend this fact
Permit the adults to do the work of leading the association through negotiations. The process is much too complex to explain to you nitwits but let's just say when we say:
"The company wouldn't go for it"
We are in no position to bargain because when we say:
"you can't say that"
they can quickly respond:
"Can too, we stamped it, no erasies!"
And you fools might be like, why don't you try walking away? Well, all the company has to say is:
"double stamp, no erasies" and it is fact that no Arbitrator in the land will overturn something double stamped, no erasies.
Plus they could go as far as a "triple stamp, no erasies". Then what? Good luck with that
And for the woke division of pilots who think this group is comparable to anything south of the border or across the pond...you have been warned. We are not a passenger to curb delivery service like US airlines. The company simply does not have the logistical capability or cost structure to be able to compete against US airlines directly. Just be happy you unappreciative dissenters have employment and the planes aren't at CargoJet or Air Transat
He sold Best Fit as a big win? Everyone I know is pissed about Best Fit
They didn't even negotiate the DBM-2 hourly guarantees for flat pay pilots which now makes up a significant portion of the pilot group.
Then during the covid MOA they chucked the 600 furloughs without CEWs which every other airline got while making flat pay pilots lose their 75 hrs guarantee.
They negotiated zero predictability for who is going to get called making reserve completely unpredictable for everyone. Zero analysis to what other airlines do with reserve patterns or short & long call. No limit on reserve availability periods
You can't even bid days off for reserve patterns because the Commodore 64 computer can't figure it out
Are guys like this management now?
thrust set wrote: ↑Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:56 pm
Some changes to reserve:
-To help comply with CARs requirements, introduced new Reserve language (using similar concept to other airlines’ system of Best Fit) -( I’ll call that a minor give as the new RAP was complicating things anyway )
-Expanded Reserve patterns to promote days off in order of seniority (finally if you’re senior you can bid your days off and get what you bid for. -Gain )
-Minimum 12/13 Guaranteed (G) days off in 30/31-day block month ( Gain )
- Improved release/reassignment language, (Gain)
- All days off will be G days (exceptions for WJA – two sets of days off beginning with a single T day – Mar, July, Aug, Dec) -( what ! finally you can plan a life on reserve ) -Gain
Premium for PoR who flies into or on a G day -Gain
rudder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:51 am
What will be the B777F pay rates?
I believe he is referring to if there will be a 10% paycut or not
Pilots already agreed to a paycut on the 767 and the pay could go to arbitration. The company has a strong case for giving the pilots another 10% paycut to fly the exact airplane they are already flying.
Well done ACPA
Oh please god! No! Cause...fuel prices? Like....wha, what can they pissibly use to justify paying less on a bigger jet with a wider mission?!
Are guys that jacked about flying a 777 they'll take another 10% haircut to put the type on their license? F******g embarrassing.
Freshredmeat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:38 am
They didn't even negotiate the DBM-2 hourly guarantees for flat pay pilots which now makes up a significant portion of the pilot group.
It’s ok, because none of the flat pay pilots are on reserve!
Freshredmeat wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:38 am
They didn't even negotiate the DBM-2 hourly guarantees for flat pay pilots which now makes up a significant portion of the pilot group.
It’s ok, because none of the flat pay pilots are on reserve!
It's also OK because none of the fully displaced base chairs are on reserve or on the line!
