Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

[pelmet]

C-GDDJ, a Wilderness Seaplanes Grumman G21A (Goose) was conducting a passenger flight
from Port Hardy (CYZT), BC, to the Wuikinuxv airstrip (60 nautical miles north of CYZT) with the
pilot and 4 passengers on board. After touchdown at Wuikinuxv, when the tailwheel was lowered,
the plan began to drift to the left. The pilot took corrective action but was unable to remain on the
centerline and the plane veered into the soft shoulder as it slowed down. The passengers and the
pilot disembarked from the aircraft without injury.

Company maintenance were dispatched to inspect the aircraft and determined that the only
damage was some scratches on the keel. The plane was recovered to the hard surface of the
airstrip and returned to service.

[pelmet]

C-FFND, an amateur built, Champion L16 Replica (MS-L16A), was landing on a private runway
near Mooretown, Ontario. During the approach, the pilot encountered gusty wind conditions, and
had difficulty keeping the aircraft on the approach centerline. After touchdown, control of the
aircraft was lost and the right main wheel went off the runway edge, into the soft dirt, causing the
aircraft to ground loop. The aircraft sustained substantial damage; there were no injuries.

[pelmet]

C-FQPH, an amateur built Denney Kitfox IV equipped with tundra tires and conventional landing
gear, was flying from Plattsville Airport/Lubitz Flying Field (CLB2), Ontario to Kincardine Airport
(CYKM), Ontario, with the pilot being the sole occupant. During touchdown on runway 13 at CYKM
with the wind calm, control was lost and the aircraft began to ground loop. An attempt was made to
go-around, but the aircraft was already out of control. The aircraft came to rest in a field near the
runway, where the pilot exited the aircraft with minor injuries. The aircraft was destroyed.

[pelmet]

C-FTXD, a Kitfox IV-1200 equipped with a tail wheel, was conducting a high speed taxi test at
Shupe Field, a private unregistered grass strip approximately 16nm ESE of Saugeen Municipal
Airport (CYHS), Ontario, with the pilot as the sole occupant. While taxiing at speed taxi in gusty
crosswind conditions, control was lost, and the aircraft departed the runway into an area of long
grass; both main landing gear failed, resulting in a prop strike. The pilot exited the aircraft and was
uninjured.

[pelmet]

C-FHPD, a privately owned Van's RV-6 was landing on a private grass runway 3 nautical miles
west of Paris, ON, lined on both sides by corn that was approximately 4 feet high. After touchdown,
the aircraft's right wing contacted the corn on the right side and the aircraft ground looped and
came to stop. The two occupants on board were not injured, but the aircraft received substantial
damage to the left wing, propeller and left main landing gear. The ELT was automatically activated
and JRCC responded to the scene. The wind was calm at the time of the accident.

[pelmet]

C-FQHJ, a privately registered Luscombe 8E, was conducting a training flight at Winters Aire Park
- Indus (CFY4), AB. On short final for Runway 09 the instructor took control from the student to
initiate a go-around. During the go-around the aircraft lightly contacted the runway surface so the
instructor continued with the landing. During the roll out the right hand landing gear collapsed and
the aircraft veered off of the right side of the runway. Winds were from the 150 degrees true at 10
knots (CYYC METAR). There were no injuries and the instructor and student exited the aircraft on
their own. The plane was recovered to the student's hangar at the aerodrome.

[photofly]

I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!

[PilotDAR]

Taildraggers are much less forgiving of pilot lack of certainty, or last second change in plan. If you're making it up as you go along, you may end up just going along! Always have a plan - "It'll be a wheel landing, and will be flown as such, even if the tailwheel briefly touches". Or, "It'll be a three point, and my bounce recovery plan will be...". "I've a crosswind from the (L/R) so I'm going to plant the (L/R) mainwheel first, and hold it there, while maintaining directional control and the runway centerline", and allowing the plane to slow".

I've seen too many taildragger landings which appeared to be "some of this, and some of that". The problem is that as the flight changes from "this" to "that", the airplane is probably not entirely in control, and will be much harder to get back once too far out of control.

[Inverted2]

I’ve flown one for 24 years. Never had a ground loop (knock on wood). I’ve decided not to fly many times when it’s too windy. I also gave up hull insurance 10 years ago so I’m extra careful.

Remember if your feet aren’t always moving those rudder pedals you aren’t doing it right.

[JasonE]

I've seen too many taildragger landings which appeared to be "some of this, and some of that". The problem is that as the flight changes from "this" to "that", the airplane is probably not entirely in control, and will be much harder to get back once too far out of control.

This is spot on. The worst tailwheel landings I've witnessed (aside for initial tailwheel training) are when the pilot changes his plan or mind in the last few seconds. Never turns out well, usually with a go-around.

[digits_]

I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!

You mean it's.... 'threadening' ....

[pelmet]

The pilot of C-GPLL, a Bakeng Duce aircraft, was taking off from Runway 07 at Lancaster Airpark
(CLA6), ON and had just become airborne around 1000 feet down the runway when the aircraft
encountered some unexpected wind from the left causing the aircraft to drift right. The pilot
corrected for the right drift and then found the aircraft wanted to drift left then right. The pilot
attempted to correct the drifting and ended up losing control of the aircraft and crashing on the
south side of the runway near the windsock, there were no injuries. The aircrafts right land gear
and tail wheel failed, the right wing was bent and the propeller was damaged.

[pelmet]

I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!

It can bring home the reality of the increased hazards/less forgiveness of conventional gear aircraft. Unfortunately, we don't typically get much more detail other than the few sentences in the brief reports. But on occasion, it can lead to further discussion and discovery of how an incident can be avoided. There was a reply to one of the incidents last year in which control was lost where we discovered that the pilot was landing a small taildragger in a near 30 knot crosswind.

It did surprise me that the landing was attempted in such a strong crosswind. I think greater level of caution/margin is a good idea when flying taildraggers unless one is on top of their game as they are less forgiving of errors.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Pelmet,

Please go back and read what « that » poster wrote.

They landed with a near 30 knot headwind component and then taxied with a nearly 30 knot crosswind component which was « challenging ».

TPC

[pelmet]

Pelmet,

Please go back and read what « that » poster wrote.

They landed with a near 30 knot headwind component and then taxied with a nearly 30 knot crosswind component which was « challenging ».

TPC

I was referring to a different incident involving a crosswind landing, which was a reply to a TSB report…..

viewtopic.php?p=1160989#p1160989

[photofly]

I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!

It can bring home the reality of the increased hazards/less forgiveness of conventional gear aircraft. Unfortunately, we don't typically get much more detail other than the few sentences in the brief reports. But on occasion, it can lead to further discussion and discovery of how an incident can be avoided. There was a reply to one of the incidents last year in which control was lost where we discovered that the pilot was landing a small taildragger in a near 30 knot crosswind.

It did surprise me that the landing was attempted in such a strong crosswind. I think greater level of caution/margin is a good idea when flying taildraggers unless one is on top of their game as they are less forgiving of errors.

A quick scan through this thread doesn't yet reveal a great deal of valuable high level discussion about how to avoid an incident. Are you sure it isn't more about voyeurism and better-than-thou posturing about other pilots' choices and abilities? Would you at least consider carefully that it might look so, to anyone reading your reports?

Aren't there only just a few ways for a taildragger to nose-over or groundloop, and only just a few ways to avoid it? Have they not already been covered, in four pages of accident reports so far? Or are you hoping that one more report will elicit just exactly the response to finally teach us all the technique that we just haven't quite learned yet?

[pelmet]

I don't know about anyone else who flies a taildragger, but all I can think of each time I land is to hope I don't end up in this thread. It's quite threatening!

It can bring home the reality of the increased hazards/less forgiveness of conventional gear aircraft. Unfortunately, we don't typically get much more detail other than the few sentences in the brief reports. But on occasion, it can lead to further discussion and discovery of how an incident can be avoided. There was a reply to one of the incidents last year in which control was lost where we discovered that the pilot was landing a small taildragger in a near 30 knot crosswind.

It did surprise me that the landing was attempted in such a strong crosswind. I think greater level of caution/margin is a good idea when flying taildraggers unless one is on top of their game as they are less forgiving of errors.

A quick scan through this thread doesn't yet reveal a great deal of valuable high level discussion about how to avoid an incident. Are you sure it isn't more about voyeurism and better-than-thou posturing about other pilots' choices and abilities? Would you at least consider carefully that it might look so, to anyone reading your reports?

Aren't there only just a few ways for a taildragger to nose-over or groundloop, and only just a few ways to avoid it? Have they not already been covered, in four pages of accident reports so far? Or are you hoping that one more report will elicit just exactly the response to finally teach us all the technique that we just haven't quite learned yet?

What is considered valuable can vary from person to person. PilotDAR has made many valuable posts on this forum and as I went through this thread from the beginning, I found some information that could be valuable to a pilot just starting their tail wheel training in just the second post.

Perhaps they will ask more about it before legally operating a conventional gear aircraft in Canada alone with no previous experience. It is easyy to lose touch with how little new pilots know aa one’s hours rack up.

All that being said, this is an accident forum where people post about accident/incidents. There is frequently no high level discussion on many of these threads that are started.

I created several threads on certain types of accidents as a way to avoid(using this thread as an example) dozens of single post threads.

Even if there is no further high level discussion, using this thread as an example could make it very easy for someone interested in finding out some info about what sort of situations are involved in tailwheel incidents instead of having to make much more effort.

It seems to make me more cautious as I delayed a tailwheel flight just this week due to winds. Best to be conservative, even though it is creating other inconveniences.

I’m sorry you feel threatened by this but perhaps that could somehow be a good thing. Concerned would be better.

You mention that because the ways to have an incident on a taildragger have been covered negating the need for further posting of incidents. Should we consider that for all incidents as most have been coved in this forum over the years. We could just shut it down.

[photofly]

It seems to make me more cautious as I delayed a tailwheel flight just this week due to winds. Best to be conservative, even though it is creating other inconveniences.

You created a thread about accidents in order to persuade yourself not to fly in winds you didn't like? I guess if that's really what it takes, then it has a valid purpose.

I’m sorry you feel threatened by it.

Me too.

[pelmet]

It seems to make me more cautious as I delayed a tailwheel flight just this week due to winds. Best to be conservative, even though it is creating other inconveniences.

You created a thread about accidents in order to persuade yourself not to fly in winds you didn't like? I guess if that's really what it takes, then it has a valid purpose.

'
I think I told you why I created the thread. Based on the responses i see, I have also come to the conclusion that the high level discussion for accident prevention will almost certainly not come from you. That's fine, you are welcome to continue reading if you choose. I will keenly await the input of Mr. Dar and others.

[pelmet]

C-GNTM, an Air Tractor AT-802 operated by Forest Protection Limited, was conducting fire
suppression training flights about 20 nm southwest of Fredericton (CYFC), NB. It was planned to
have the aircraft land at Brockway (CCX3) Airport, NB for fuel, and as the aircraft touched down on
Runway 22 at CCX3, the aircraft began to drift to the left. The pilot applied right rudder, and when
the yaw to the left continued, the pilot began adding right brake pedal pressure in an attempt to
arrest the left yaw. It was not possible for the pilot to arrest the left yaw with right rudder and brake
pedal force, and the left yaw increased until the aircraft nose was 90 degrees left, relative to the
runway. The tailwheel pylon separated during the skid to the left, and the aircraft came to rest with
the main landing gear off of the runway surface. The pilot was uninjured.

The left mainwheel tire was found deflated due to a shredded patch in the center of the tread. The
tire came off its wheel bead, and allowed the wheel rim to cause minor gouging damage to the chip
seal runway surface. A small amount of fuel vented onto the runway surface. The landing
conditions for runway were described as a light, right crosswind.

[pelmet]

C-FRZK, a Rocking Star Adventures Ltd. Piper PA-18-150, was conducting VFR operations in
support of a hunting camp in the Nisling River area of the Yukon. During a landing on a gravel bar
on the Nisling River, the left wing contacted a stump and the aircraft veered left. During heavy
braking the tail came up and the aircraft came to rest on its nose. The aircraft sustained damage to
the left wing and propeller. The pilot, who was the sole occupant, was uninjured.

[pelmet]

C-GKKB, a Kenn Borek Air Ltd. Douglas DC-3C Basler BT-67 was conducting a positioning flight
under instruments flight rules (IFR) from Brownsville/South Padre Island Intl. (KBRO), TX to
Liberia/Daniel Oduber Quirós Intl. (MRLB), Costa Rica. After RNAV approach runway 25, engines'
throttles were brought to idle just before touchdown. After uneventful touchdown, aircraft
decelerated normally, and the tail came down. Flight crew introduced beta as they thought the tail
was down and the aircraft started veering to the right. PF applied more left beta and left brakes
with no effect and the aircraft continued to veer harder right. The aircraft started skidding and
veered off runway into soft grassy field. Aircraft came to a stop 10 feet from the edge of runway.
There was no damage to aircraft and no injuries. Aircraft was inspected with no defect noted by
maintenance.

[pelmet]

C-FYCS, a privately registered Cessna A185E equipped with conventional landing gear, was
conducting a flight from Springhouse Airpark (CAQ4), BC, to Williams Lake Airport (CYWL), BC,
with 1 pilot onboard. During the touchdown on runway 30, the tailwheel began to shimmy and the
pilot pushed the control column forward to lift the tailwheel off the ground. The shimmy stopped
and the pilot pulled the control column back. The tailwheel touched the ground for the second time
and the aircraft immediately entered a ground loop to the right. The left wheel and tailwheel broke
free of the aircraft and the left wingtip contacted the runway. The aircraft came to a stop facing the
opposite direction on the runway. The pilot shutdown the engine, exited the aircraft, and contacted
the CYWL flight service station to request assistance. The pilot was uninjured, but the aircraft was
substantially damaged.
The airport issued a NOTAM to close the runway. The airport authority assisted the pilot in moving
the aircraft from the runway to the apron in front of a private hangar located at the airport. The
runway was re-opened approximately 2.5 hours after the occurrence.

[pelmet]

The privately registered Luscombe T8F-X, C-FHCA, was on a local flight departing, and returning
to the Josephburg airport (CFB6), AB. The aircraft touched down in a 3 point attitude and on the
roll out the pilot had difficulty maintaining directional control. The oscillations became progressively
worse until it ground looped and nosed over. The aircraft was substantially damaged, the pilot was
not injured, and the ELT did not activate.

Maintenance Update: The aircraft was removed from the runway to a secure location. A log entry
was made in the Journey log removing the aircraft from service pending extensive repairs.

[photofly]

The T8F apparently is a rare tandem seat version, built for pipeline observation or crop spraying. Pity.
https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/10703649