P4C members terminated

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negative_g
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by negative_g »

strengthinumbers wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:35 am Another email from ACPA, another P4C member “RESIGNS” from his position.

YYZ LEC Councillor - JG.

I met this guy and heard him speak a couple times. He was very passionate about what he was doing and came across extremely professional.

In my opinion, there’s no way he resigned from this position on his own accord.

ACPA appears to be openly showing just how corrupt they really are. And the membership is letting them get away with it.

What a fu*king mess.
Isn't JG an elected MEC Member? He's not a councillor.
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Bingo Fuel
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Bingo Fuel »

strengthinumbers wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:35 am ACPA appears to be openly showing just how corrupt they really are. And the membership is letting them get away with it.
What action should the membership take?

Electing new P4C representatives to replace the ones who "resigned". This will send a clear message about the representation we want, and the dissatisfaction with the old guard.
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FL030
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by FL030 »

Bingo Fuel wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:16 am
strengthinumbers wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:35 am ACPA appears to be openly showing just how corrupt they really are. And the membership is letting them get away with it.
What action should the membership take?

Electing new P4C representatives to replace the ones who "resigned". This will send a clear message about the representation we want, and the dissatisfaction with the old guard.
We should sign a ALPA union card.
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altiplano
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by altiplano »

This is what the company does when you don't want to get along, and go along. They just fire the MEC reps that represent, if they can't get there entrenched moles to do it for them.

It's no wonder there is nobody representing Air Canada pilots, they all get booted out of the union, even right out of the company if they do.

TL, MD, JG... before them PS, JMB...
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strengthinumbers
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by strengthinumbers »

Bingo Fuel wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:16 am
strengthinumbers wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:35 am ACPA appears to be openly showing just how corrupt they really are. And the membership is letting them get away with it.
What action should the membership take?

Electing new P4C representatives to replace the ones who "resigned". This will send a clear message about the representation we want, and the dissatisfaction with the old guard.
2 elected union reps who share the same opposing views of the ACPA play book “resign” in back to back weeks.

You think ACPA is going to allow anymore P4C members to run? You watch, a carefully crafted list of names will appear come election time!!

These snakes are playing a dirty game.
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Bingo Fuel
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Bingo Fuel »

strengthinumbers wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:35 am You think ACPA is going to allow anymore P4C members to run? You watch, a carefully crafted list of names will appear come election time!!

These snakes are playing a dirty game.
You think they'd be able to get away with that? Anyone who isn't bound by a NDA would absolutely speak out.
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rudder
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by rudder »

You guys and gals seriously need some new representation…. send RG off to retirement.

Calling ACPA a failed experiment is being overly kind.
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Fanblade
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Fanblade »

rudder wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 12:12 pm You guys and gals seriously need some new representation…. send RG off to retirement.

Calling ACPA a failed experiment is being overly kind.
Calling ACPA representation is overly kind.

Yeah this is brutal. First the old guard within ACPA tries, but fails, to take out the P4C crowd in the spring. The membership responds with a recall. ACPA leadership ignores the results. Then the company fires the same group ACPA tried to take out in the spring.

Two of the people fired are probably the most vocal about ACPA changing.

But get this. According to ACPA these firings were not targeted if you can believe it. Of course they say that because, well, they want P4C gone too. Saying they were targeted would require a strong response which of course our little extension of management is not willing to do. So they are relegated as “ private personal issues”. Nothing gets said to the membership. The membership hasn’t even been told some of these guys were terminated. The only information given was they resigned from their union positions.

I sure hope these guys don’t use ACPA legal. I doubt in-house legal would be permitted to defend them on union busting grounds.

The best way to deal with this is to send in reinforcements.
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sportingrifle
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by sportingrifle »

Fanblade….
I have no inside information as to what this individual did to get fired. But we both know it is pretty hard to get fired at AC - other than the 3 known guaranteed ways. In fact in my personal opinion, lately we have been hanging on to a number of people who we should have fired and who in years past, we would have fired. A union exec would have to do something pretty spectacular to get terminated, far and beyond being an overly aggressive union representative. Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management.

Unfortunately, as our newly elected “orange team” is starting to implode, I fear the company labor relations consultants are probably scheming to take an even bigger run at us than they otherwise might have. Time will tell. But I would be slow to link a termination to a labor relations related assassination.
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altiplano
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by altiplano »

Terminated for not being loyal to Air Canada is my understanding.

Pretty fucking thin.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Yeah right..."not being loyal"

How long do you think that line would last in front of an arbitrator?

This reminds me of an ACPA rep who resigned several years ago...there was a great cry from the "membership"...

"he was looking out for members" sort of like the cries about others who have left ACPA.... yada yada yada

Truth be told, he was "shtuping" someone inappropriately ....
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Fanblade
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Fanblade »

sportingrifle wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:53 pm Fanblade….
I have no inside information as to what this individual did to get fired. But we both know it is pretty hard to get fired at AC - other than the 3 known guaranteed ways. In fact in my personal opinion, lately we have been hanging on to a number of people who we should have fired and who in years past, we would have fired. A union exec would have to do something pretty spectacular to get terminated, far and beyond being an overly aggressive union representative. Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management.

Unfortunately, as our newly elected “orange team” is starting to implode, I fear the company labor relations consultants are probably scheming to take an even bigger run at us than they otherwise might have. Time will tell. But I would be slow to link a termination to a labor relations related assassination.
Sportingrifle,

Apparently it is very easy to get fired. One negative comment on social media is enough if they so desire. In this case there was a desire to get rid of someone on the MEC. The most vocal for change. It looks opportunistic. We didn’t even whimper. It’s union busting. It’s management trying to cull parts of the MEC they don’t want. The same people parts of ACPA don’t want. ACPA’s impotence is currently on full display.

The company just showed us how powerless ACPA is. Leave partisan politics out of this for a moment. They fired a vocal union leader. Anywhere else that would be war. What did we do? We ran and left them twisting in the wind. Same as 10 years ago with PS and JMB.

You’re on here trying to play down what just happened. You have pre judged guilt on the pilots and innocence on management. So just let them twist in the wind? Pretty cold dude.

We are so impotent that we don’t even have the courage to call this what it is. The reason is because ACPA would have to respond aggressively toward the company if they admitted what happened. That will never happen in this management aligned union.

We are weak. Very very weak. Yes the company will absolutely crush us if we don’t change.

“Hell, it seems that being a skilled and aggressive union representative is a common way into management. “

Are you joking? Our CBA is the litmus test for the quality of our representation. Think about it. ACPA is a known pathway into management. How aggressive do you think a management wannabe is going to act? In fact the management position reward is for giving things away. For acting as if you were already management while sitting on the union side.
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Last edited by Fanblade on Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by sportingrifle »

Fan blade…as I said I have no idea what actually led to his termination. And I have seen quite a lot of behaviours that would have got people fired in most jobs and didn’t at AC. If the guy really was targeted unjustly, it won’t take long for an arbitrator to see thru it.

I have also noticed that the company tends to pick the brighter union bulbs for management while sometimes leaving ACPA with the “energy saving” ones.

In general I am sick and tired of training entitled children with no appreciation of the job or profession. If a few who have expressed unhappiness with their job are given some expedited assistance in finding something more to their liking, I am not loosing any sleep over it. Let somebody who really wants the job have it. My bigger worry is how tribal and disorganized our union is just as we are going into contract negotiations.
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Fanblade
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Fanblade »

sportingrifle wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:20 am
In general I am sick and tired of training entitled children with no appreciation of the job or profession. If a few who have expressed unhappiness with their job are given some expedited assistance in finding something more to their liking, I am not loosing any sleep over it. Let somebody who really wants the job have it.
OMG dude. That post was cringe worthy. You just made our generation look like a bunch of Aholes. You just put on full display why the bottom half of the seniority list is responding the way they are to ACPA, it’s leadership and our generation.

I work on the line with these fellow aviators you so easily denigrate. They are as professional and talented as any generation before them.

There is nothing wrong with wanting things to be better, rather than constantly getting worse. It’s actually quite normal.

I’m embarrassed by your post.
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sportingrifle
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by sportingrifle »

Fan blade..ok , we will just agree to disagree on this point.
And fwiw, the pilots at the teal coloured ALPA airline that beaked off on social media also found themselves unemployed.
I am proud of the job we do and of the profession. Those who feel likewise are a pleasure to work with and will have amazing careers. Those that thumb their nose at the job or the profession by either besmirching it or not willing to make the effort that it requires, I am happy to see pursue other opportunities. One observation that I would add, for better or worse, is that my opinion is shared by many of my colleagues.
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Fanblade
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Fanblade »

sportingrifle wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:40 am Fan blade..ok , we will just agree to disagree on this point.
And fwiw, the pilots at the teal coloured ALPA airline that beaked off on social media also found themselves unemployed.
I am proud of the job we do and of the profession. Those who feel likewise are a pleasure to work with and will have amazing careers. Those that thumb their nose at the job or the profession by either besmirching it or not willing to make the effort that it requires, I am happy to see pursue other opportunities. One observation that I would add, for better or worse, is that my opinion is shared by many of my colleagues.
Lol,

So you respond with doubling down on your attitude toward the next generation. This is the same mistake the YVR chair keeps making. And he can’t figure out why his popularity crashed.

Wanting things to improve after decades of losses is not a crime.

We, as in you and I, are the generation that failed to leave this profession better than we found it.

I think we are the actual problem. And the next generation knows it.

We are not liked because of what we left them.

Responses like suck it up punk. Or if you don’t like it, there’s the door. Let the vocal MEC guy from the next generation twist in the wind.

Can you not see how that attitude might be part of the problem?
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negative_g
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by negative_g »

"Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...

Sounds familiar.

And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.

Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.

disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
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Ki-ll
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Ki-ll »

negative_g wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...

Sounds familiar.

And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.

Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.

disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
Just a random question.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
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negative_g
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by negative_g »

Ki-ll wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:55 pm
negative_g wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:15 pm "Everyone just shut up and be happy you work at AC"...

Sounds familiar.

And Sr pilots wonder why there's a whole separate forum just for CWIPP pilots.

Go look at 2003 wages, compared to 2022 wages. Factor some inflation, housing prices since then, overall cost of living... and maybe you (sportingrifle) will understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job. And don't say "well go somewhere else"... there isn't anywhere else. AC is still the top in Canada, but that doesn't mean those of us who went there have to be happy with the status quo.

disclaimer; I know it's not everyone, I know a ton of awesome Sr guys.
Just a random question.
What’s the time to left seat in a 320 now vs. back in 2003?
Not everyone wants to go be a Jr captain just to get off flat pay.

Year 3 320FOs made 120-130k in 2002-2003 money. Go find an inflation calculator and compare that to the 75k they make now.

Have a look at what houses cost in Richmond, Surrey, Burlington, Oakville etc in 2003 as well.

Maybe then some Sr fellas will understand why so many Jr pilots are angry.
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Re: P4C members terminated

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

understand why so many Jr pilots feel like the Sr pilots didn't do much to protect this job.
You wonder why senior pilots don't think much of junior pilots....statements like that show so much ignorance and naiveté.

1995-1998 huge hiring boom...ends with strike of 1998.
199?-1998 Air Canada regional airline pilots take ACPA pilots to CLRB/CIRB to try and force a seniority merger
1999 Federal govt conspires with AA and Gerry Schwartz to takeover Air Canada
1999 Air Canada forced to buy CAI
2000 tech sector meltdown - huge downturn of business traffic
2000 merger of AC and CAI...CRA pilots merged with fake dates of hire, CAI pilots get free upgrade (non-negotiated) to ACPA wage and working conditions
2001 - 9-11 almost zero support from Canadian federal government
2001 Mitchnick award in merger of ACPA and ALPA-C
2003 - Air Canada CCAA pilots chose to take pay cuts to protect junior pilot jobs...other AC unions sell out their junior members
Keller award award in merger of ACPA and ALPA-C
2004 Air Canada emerges from CCAA
2006 arbitrator removes pension indexing from ACPA
2008/09 Financial meltdown...Air Canada barely avoids CCAA a second time that decade - CA frozen
2012 Federal gov't under Harper takes a tough stance against Labour....screws Canada Post...prevents pilots from striking under the Protection of Air Services Act
FOS is forced on ACPA by Harper govt.

But you're right...senior pilots no nothing about tough times and protecting junior pilots
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