Flow through to AC

[negative_g]

Anyone have an idea of how fast they're moving down the Jazz seniority list, and of a rough timeline for when an October 2018 Jazz hire could reasonably expect to get the call from AC? Accounting for pilots skipped over cause they haven't applied, can't apply due to ineligibility, etc.

I'm December 2017 DOH. Interviewed in 2019 and fell out of the pool due to COVID. Still haven't heard back for my re-interview.

Interesting. You should be in touch with alpa and make sure AC is following the hiring in seniority rule. I'm pretty sure people hired around your time are interviewing right now.

[link821]

If I remember correctly, isn’t one of the requirements to flow over a min of 2 yrs at Jazz? Was that not on the Jazz specific job posting at AC?

Also, for what it’s worth AC has canceled/delayed the equipment bid again. Was originally discussed to be August (back to its regular 2 month interval from the June bid) then it got delayed to Sept and now it’s delayed to Oct.

Some chatter this has to do with the training depts being completely over capacity.

My guess is hiring won’t be affected, but where it gets ugly is the number of training events set to take place now.

Very interesting times ahead!

Far as we were told in my class there’s no 2 year rule.

[negative_g]

The two year thing was from the short period of time of PML2.0. After the original but before the current agreement. It's no longer a thing.

[Flyingbeluga]

For anyone with an atpl and 2000h or close jazz is your worst option to go to AC. Will take way longer 2+ years.

[Transition9er2]

That makes sense, thanks for clarifying.

Hopefully we start seeing consistent flow now for Jazz candidates who qualify!

[negative_g]

There's what, 900 vacancies at AC right now? I imagine the bid in October will have more. That looks out one year, so 60% of that is 540 pilots. Pretty much anyone on property right now will likely be at AC by next fall if they meet the minimum requirements. Everyone just needs to chillax and let things happen as they happen.

Also when you make it to AC, remember to VOTE NO on everything unless it's a 40% raise. You fellow future co-workers thank you in advance.

[Inverted2]

I don’t believe there are that many pilots at Jazz that would be qualified to go over. There’s about 1300 pilots here right now when you discount management and those on disability. The top 600-700 aren’t interested and there’s hundreds of college kids with no ATPL.

[RegionalPilot]

I don’t believe there are that many pilots at Jazz that would be qualified to go over. There’s about 1300 pilots here right now when you discount management and those on disability. The top 600-700 aren’t interested and there’s hundreds of college kids with no ATPL.

My guess is 200 are qualified at this time.

What we will end up seeing is the pool of applicants from Jazz will be depleted by mid 2023.

[rudder]

I don’t believe there are that many pilots at Jazz that would be qualified to go over. There’s about 1300 pilots here right now when you discount management and those on disability. The top 600-700 aren’t interested and there’s hundreds of college kids with no ATPL.

My guess is 200 are qualified at this time.

What we will end up seeing is the pool of applicants from Jazz will be depleted by mid 2023.

It is way over 200. Nearly 200 will leave for AC in 2022 alone (150-180). Over 50% of Jazz 2022 new-hires thus far are ATPL qualified. There will be no shortage of Jazz pilots meeting the AC application qualifications for 2023, particularly if AC elects to backload Jazz quota hiring in 2023. Issue, as always, is that an absence of metering (no reserved seniority) creates huge problems for Jazz as the exodus is not balanced over time.

Further, unplanned departures for other opportunities (Flair/Porter/Morningstar/CargoJet/etc) are happening at an ever increasing pace.

Now would be the perfect time to enhance the flow by implementing a reserved seniority/delayed flow feature. Unfortunately, common sense is often overshadowed by other agendas. And ultimately the decision about seniority assignment rests within the ACPA CBA.

So for now it will be status quo with some actually hoping for a mini-recession through 2023 in order to take pressure off of the demand side for travel. Time will tell.

[Ash Ketchum]

There are close to 200 former SKY pilots alone who want to go to AC. All are qualified and some are quite senior. Not to mention the other pilots who have been at Jazz since mid/late 2017, my estimate is that close to half of the Jazz pilot group is qualified and willing to go to AC.

[rudder]

There are close to 200 former SKY pilots alone who want to go to AC. All are qualified and some are quite senior. Not to mention the other pilots who have been at Jazz since mid/late 2017, my estimate is that close to half of the Jazz pilot group is qualified and willing to go to AC.

I chuckle that many forget the approximately 280 former SKV pilots that were added to the Jazz list in 2021. Most meet the AC application requirements. Vast majority headed for AC. That demographic and cadre alone would more than fill 2022 flow and part of 2023. Then add the Jazz pilots DOH 2017/2018 that have been waiting since spring 2020 for the call.

It is an OTS fantasy that Jazz will soon run out of flow candidates. It won’t happen in 2022 or 2023. 2024? Who knows.

What Jazz is running out of is CA and pilots qualified to be CA. That is the near term issue since most flow candidates are current Jazz CA.

[Dias]

Jazz won't run out of flow candidates
Most flow candidates are captains
Jazz is out of captains and pilots qualified to be captains

Sounds like OTS hiring will be the majority of new hires to me.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Jazz won't run out of flow candidates
Most flow candidates are captains
Jazz is out of captains and pilots qualified to be captains

Sounds like OTS hiring will be the majority of new hires to me.

Tell me if I’m wrong, but the sense I get is that people saying all will be OTS are probably OTS, and all will be Jazz are likely jazz pilots. Both trying to make themselves feel better and more secure they will get to AC. Chill out. I’m sure it will be a balance between both, give or take. Your day will come.

[negative_g]

Jazz won't run out of flow candidates
Most flow candidates are captains
Jazz is out of captains and pilots qualified to be captains

Sounds like OTS hiring will be the majority of new hires to me.

No matter what, 60% of the new hires at AC are contractually required to come from Jazz. In the past AC was taking closer to 80% so I expect they will be doing the absolute minimum to meet the 60% and the rest like you say will come OTS.

Jazz has plenty of FOs with ATPLs but they are just not opting to upgrade. Forced upgrades will be next.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Jazz won't run out of flow candidates
Most flow candidates are captains
Jazz is out of captains and pilots qualified to be captains

Sounds like OTS hiring will be the majority of new hires to me.

No matter what, 60% of the new hires at AC are contractually required to come from Jazz. In the past AC was taking closer to 80% so I expect they will be doing the absolute minimum to meet the 60% and the rest like you say will come OTS.

Jazz has plenty of FOs with ATPLs but they are just not opting to upgrade. Forced upgrades will be next.

Ok I'll bite how the hell do you FORCE an upgrade, attempting this could easily turn into an HR nightmare.

[Dias]

No matter what, 60% of the new hires at AC are contractually required to come from Jazz.

What do you think will cost AC more, not living up to the contract, or Jazz running out of captains and having to stop flying?

[negative_g]

It's actually in the contract.

.02 Vacancies shall be awarded to the senior Pilot bidding, in accordance with Section
5-5.01 (VACANCY BIDDING), Section 5-8 (REINSTATEMENT RIGHTS) and
Section 5-10 (FREEZES) as follows:
a) Primary Vacancies:
i) From the ESPB on file as of the closing date of the primary system Vacancy
bid, subject to any qualification as to the minimum number of Positions
below the applicable Pilot at the time of the Vacancy award, provided that
the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements are sufficient in
accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF SENIORITY).
ii) On completion of i) above any Pilot who is reduced in either Equipment or
Status in accordance with Section 5-5.01a) (VACANCY BIDDING) may
displace any junior Pilot, in accordance with Section 5-7 (POSITION
REDUCTIONS AND DISPLACEMENTS).

b) Secondary and subsequent vacancies:
From the ESPB on file, subject to any qualification as to the minimum
number of Positions below the applicable Pilot at the time of the Vacancy
award, provided that the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements are
sufficient in accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF
SENIORITY).

c) Any Vacancies not filled by b) above:
To be filled by assigning the most junior Pilot in the system provided that
the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements, are sufficient in
accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF SENIORITY), or by the
hiring of new Pilots if the total number of system Positions have increased.

The company can force the most Jr pilot who is qualified to upgrade, into a Captain upgrade if needed. It's been done in the past as recent as 2017/2018 from my recollection.

[mmm..bacon]

Jazz won't run out of flow candidates
Most flow candidates are captains
Jazz is out of captains and pilots qualified to be captains

Sounds like OTS hiring will be the majority of new hires to me.

A problem that would be quite easily solved with a pay bump. Lots of qualified people would apply for DEC at Jazz if the starting pay wasn't so low, and on a ?15 year payscale to the top...

[Inverted2]

It's actually in the contract.

.02 Vacancies shall be awarded to the senior Pilot bidding, in accordance with Section
5-5.01 (VACANCY BIDDING), Section 5-8 (REINSTATEMENT RIGHTS) and
Section 5-10 (FREEZES) as follows:
a) Primary Vacancies:
i) From the ESPB on file as of the closing date of the primary system Vacancy
bid, subject to any qualification as to the minimum number of Positions
below the applicable Pilot at the time of the Vacancy award, provided that
the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements are sufficient in
accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF SENIORITY).
ii) On completion of i) above any Pilot who is reduced in either Equipment or
Status in accordance with Section 5-5.01a) (VACANCY BIDDING) may
displace any junior Pilot, in accordance with Section 5-7 (POSITION
REDUCTIONS AND DISPLACEMENTS).

b) Secondary and subsequent vacancies:
From the ESPB on file, subject to any qualification as to the minimum
number of Positions below the applicable Pilot at the time of the Vacancy
award, provided that the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements are
sufficient in accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF
SENIORITY).

c) Any Vacancies not filled by b) above:
To be filled by assigning the most junior Pilot in the system provided that
the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements, are sufficient in
accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF SENIORITY), or by the
hiring of new Pilots if the total number of system Positions have increased.

The company can force the most Jr pilot who is qualified to upgrade, into a Captain upgrade if needed. It's been done in the past as recent as 2017/2018 from my recollection.

Are you sure? Maybe if they were on bypass pay and have to upgrade to keep the pay but there are a few FOs at Jazz with 20 even over 30+ years seniority.

[Loon-A-Tic]

It's actually in the contract.

.02 Vacancies shall be awarded to the senior Pilot bidding, in accordance with Section
5-5.01 (VACANCY BIDDING), Section 5-8 (REINSTATEMENT RIGHTS) and
Section 5-10 (FREEZES) as follows:
a) Primary Vacancies:
i) From the ESPB on file as of the closing date of the primary system Vacancy
bid, subject to any qualification as to the minimum number of Positions
below the applicable Pilot at the time of the Vacancy award, provided that
the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements are sufficient in
accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF SENIORITY).
ii) On completion of i) above any Pilot who is reduced in either Equipment or
Status in accordance with Section 5-5.01a) (VACANCY BIDDING) may
displace any junior Pilot, in accordance with Section 5-7 (POSITION
REDUCTIONS AND DISPLACEMENTS).

b) Secondary and subsequent vacancies:
From the ESPB on file, subject to any qualification as to the minimum
number of Positions below the applicable Pilot at the time of the Vacancy
award, provided that the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements are
sufficient in accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF
SENIORITY).

c) Any Vacancies not filled by b) above:
To be filled by assigning the most junior Pilot in the system provided that
the Pilots' licences, excluding type endorsements, are sufficient in
accordance with Section 4-1 (APPLICATION OF SENIORITY), or by the
hiring of new Pilots if the total number of system Positions have increased.

The company can force the most Jr pilot who is qualified to upgrade, into a Captain upgrade if needed. It's been done in the past as recent as 2017/2018 from my recollection.

I'm calling "horse hockey" (some might be old enough to recognize who used those words). I can't even begin to imagine the liability exposure if the "forced" Captain had a untoward event that ended poorly for all.

[flyingcanuck]

No matter what, 60% of the new hires at AC are contractually required to come from Jazz.

What do you think will cost AC more, not living up to the contract, or Jazz running out of captains and having to stop flying?

Definitely the second

[tango308]

Update on flow from VP of flt ops today.

No Jazz pilots uptake in AC GS for October.

Additional info from JZA MEC an hour later. AC not taking JZA pilots next month to ensure block hours can be completed. 60% annual flow may not be met. JZA MEC exploring several options.

If AC is where you want to go, jump the line and go to WS, AT, Flair.

[Nick678]

Would it be faster to quit Jazz and apply OTS at this point?

[negative_g]

Would it be faster to quit Jazz and apply OTS at this point?

Probably.

Go work at Flair and then try OTS AC. Especially if you're a higher time pilot but very Jr at Jazz.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Would it be faster to quit Jazz and apply OTS at this point?

Anyone hired "post" Covid at Jazz will thank you for that. Its only a one month hold; load on some extra gas, wait out the passing storm the skies will clear again.