Retroactive Pay from June 2021. Contract expired.

[YVRorbust]

Since the contract expired in Jun 2021, will there be retroactive pay from that date once the new contract is signed?

If not, it could put management in a good position to stall the signing of a new contract.

[rudder]

Since the contract expired in Jun 2021, will there be retroactive pay from that date once the new contract is signed?

If not, it could put management in a good position to stall the signing of a new contract.

There is no statutory entitlement to retro pay. It will be a matter settled at the bargaining table.

[Arnie Pye]

Everyone that I know on the line is expecting a significant retro pay.
Regardless of who is stalling the contract and why, demand for back pay is only growing. It would likely be a deal breaker for most people at this point.

[flyinhigh]

Everyone that I know on the line is expecting a significant retro pay.
Regardless of who is stalling the contract and why, demand for back pay is only growing. It would likely be a deal breaker for most people at this point.

Retro pay is always expected by line pilots, and yet rarely achieved in Canada. If in terms of a contract, if you cost the company 50+ mil over a short term in WAWCON and say no cause you didn’t get 10k retro which half goes to the government. Hate to say it, but your in for some disappointment.

[GRK2]

Retro pay...always slightly out of reach and misunderstood. Wasn't it clearly explained somewhere on these forums that Flair pilots changed horses and left UNIFOR for ALPA? That's the legal "restart" for any retro pay that MIGHT be negotiated for. That's "on the pilots" I believe the statement said. If Arnie and his minions think that it's a deal breaker they're listening to the wrong frequency. I often wonder what his agenda is. Is he really a Flair pilot? He never really seems to have his own opinion, it's always someone else's that he claims to have heard on the line. New Collective Agreements take some time to negotiate and rightly so. It would be folly to rush one just to satisfy a few impatient pilots who are hoping for a windfall. Patience grasshopper, it will come in time and when it's right.

[SPR]

Retro pay...always slightly out of reach and misunderstood. Wasn't it clearly explained somewhere on these forums that Flair pilots changed horses and left UNIFOR for ALPA? That's the legal "restart" for any retro pay that MIGHT be negotiated for. That's "on the pilots" I believe the statement said.

Morningstar's arbitrator granted raises of about 20%, with retro pay, and that was after switching from UNIFOR to ALPA.

[GRK2]

Retro pay...always slightly out of reach and misunderstood. Wasn't it clearly explained somewhere on these forums that Flair pilots changed horses and left UNIFOR for ALPA? That's the legal "restart" for any retro pay that MIGHT be negotiated for. That's "on the pilots" I believe the statement said.

Morningstar's arbitrator granted raises of about 20%, with retro pay, and that was after switching from UNIFOR to ALPA.

Well good for them! I note you said it was an arbitrated result. Can you add some details here so we can get a little more information on how they ended up in arbitration? Tough row to hoe sometimes as the results are binding and you might not like what the results are.

[SPR]

What's to know? Management and the union couldn't come to an agreement through negotiation, so they went to arbitration.

[TFTMB heavy]

At Air Transat we always got retro when it applied.

[negative_g]

Retro pay...always slightly out of reach and misunderstood. Wasn't it clearly explained somewhere on these forums that Flair pilots changed horses and left UNIFOR for ALPA? That's the legal "restart" for any retro pay that MIGHT be negotiated for. That's "on the pilots" I believe the statement said.

Morningstar's arbitrator granted raises of about 20%, with retro pay, and that was after switching from UNIFOR to ALPA.

Well good for them! I note you said it was an arbitrated result. Can you add some details here so we can get a little more information on how they ended up in arbitration? Tough row to hoe sometimes as the results are binding and you might not like what the results are.

I don't understand the fear of contract arbitration. Arbitrators generally don't want to "rock the boat" too much. They'll enforce reasonable contract gains and usually a shorter contract. Look at WestJet last round. They got a bit of money into their contract (close to a million over a career) and a 4 year contract. Sure not the big winfall everyone was hoping for but step by step, and now they're entering into negotiations again. A few more steps will be taken, even under the guidance of an arbitrator.

[Arnie Pye]

Retro pay...always slightly out of reach and misunderstood. Wasn't it clearly explained somewhere on these forums that Flair pilots changed horses and left UNIFOR for ALPA? That's the legal "restart" for any retro pay that MIGHT be negotiated for. That's "on the pilots" I believe the statement said. If Arnie and his minions think that it's a deal breaker they're listening to the wrong frequency. I often wonder what his agenda is. Is he really a Flair pilot? He never really seems to have his own opinion, it's always someone else's that he claims to have heard on the line. New Collective Agreements take some time to negotiate and rightly so. It would be folly to rush one just to satisfy a few impatient pilots who are hoping for a windfall. Patience grasshopper, it will come in time and when it's right.

No minions here. Just a bunch of lackies, vassals and stooges. I still have a moleskin planner though. I guess that counts as an agenda.

Seems to me that ALPA came in right around the time the contract expired. Within a couple of months IIRC.

My opinion? I'll be as patient as you want me to be as long as back pay is guaranteed. 40% raise and 100% match on first 10% of RRSP contributions. Schedule released on time every time; no exceptions.

I would be curious to see what the results of the survey were. I think the union should release them. That's the only way to know how many people have a line in the sand when it comes to back pay.

[GRK2]

Well...always aim high I've been told.

[Arnie Pye]

Well...always aim high I've been told.

Even with those numbers, it is lower than Air Canada, WestJet and Air Transat.

We would be the third largest airline with the 4th place compensation package (maybe lower if you consider Canadian North/First Air??).

[co-joe]

Well...always aim high I've been told.

Even with those numbers, it is lower than Air Canada, WestJet and Air Transat.

We would be the third largest airline with the 4th place compensation package (maybe lower if you consider Canadian North/First Air??).

Maybe if you just compare year to year numbers, but remember career advancement is far from equal across your list.

[Arnie Pye]

Well...always aim high I've been told.

Even with those numbers, it is lower than Air Canada, WestJet and Air Transat.

We would be the third largest airline with the 4th place compensation package (maybe lower if you consider Canadian North/First Air??).

Maybe if you just compare year to year numbers, but remember career advancement is far from equal across your list.

I suppose a DEC could advance into management. This option is probably only desirable or available for 1% of the pilot group. Once you're in your seat, you're stuck with one of the lowest compensation packages in North America for a 737 driver.

A few days after I was jumped on for wanting back pay, the union sent out a communication stating that this is what they are pushing for as well. Seems like I might not be the only one interested in it after all.

Anyway, off to work I go. If you aren't aiming high, you're on the ground with the other turkeys.

[Tbayer2021]

Retro pay...always slightly out of reach and misunderstood. Wasn't it clearly explained somewhere on these forums that Flair pilots changed horses and left UNIFOR for ALPA? That's the legal "restart" for any retro pay that MIGHT be negotiated for. That's "on the pilots" I believe the statement said.

Morningstar's arbitrator granted raises of about 20%, with retro pay, and that was after switching from UNIFOR to ALPA.

Well good for them! I note you said it was an arbitrated result. Can you add some details here so we can get a little more information on how they ended up in arbitration? Tough row to hoe sometimes as the results are binding and you might not like what the results are.

Things were looking rosy going into negotiations in early 2020, but that quickly changed when covid shut the industry down. As soon as that happened, the company's attitude completely changed and started dragging out the process. After all, they weren't losing pilots anymore and now had a stack of resumes larger than they've ever seen before. The wind had completely shifted in the company's favour and not only they they know it, they knew it would be a while before things got better for the pilots. So they just crossed their arms and dug their heels. This lead to the process going into arbitration after negotiations stalled.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Flair's management is also trying to drag out the process in the hope that things also turn in their favour. Like say, that really bad recession economists are calling for in 2023. Time is on their side, booking an arbitrator now will probably not get you a date for at least around 12 months. Plenty of time for something to happen.

[tbaylx]

Morningstar's arbitrator granted raises of about 20%, with retro pay, and that was after switching from UNIFOR to ALPA.

Well good for them! I note you said it was an arbitrated result. Can you add some details here so we can get a little more information on how they ended up in arbitration? Tough row to hoe sometimes as the results are binding and you might not like what the results are.

Things were looking rosy going into negotiations in early 2020, but that quickly changed when covid shut the industry down. As soon as that happened, the company's attitude completely changed and started dragging out the process. After all, they weren't losing pilots anymore and now had a stack of resumes larger than they've ever seen before. The wind had completely shifted in the company's favour and not only they they know it, they knew it would be a while before things got better for the pilots. So they just crossed their arms and dug their heels. This lead to the process going into arbitration after negotiations stalled.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Flair's management is also trying to drag out the process in the hope that things also turn in their favour. Like say, that really bad recession economists are calling for in 2023. Time is on their side, booking an arbitrator now will probably not get you a date for at least around 12 months. Plenty of time for something to happen.

I can assure you that the company has zero interest in dragging out any negotiations. Unfortunately, negotiations also take longer than anyone would like to get right, especially for a first contract under ALPA. It's not in anyone's interest to have confusing sections or missing items like the current CBA.

[Tbayer2021]

Well good for them! I note you said it was an arbitrated result. Can you add some details here so we can get a little more information on how they ended up in arbitration? Tough row to hoe sometimes as the results are binding and you might not like what the results are.

Things were looking rosy going into negotiations in early 2020, but that quickly changed when covid shut the industry down. As soon as that happened, the company's attitude completely changed and started dragging out the process. After all, they weren't losing pilots anymore and now had a stack of resumes larger than they've ever seen before. The wind had completely shifted in the company's favour and not only they they know it, they knew it would be a while before things got better for the pilots. So they just crossed their arms and dug their heels. This lead to the process going into arbitration after negotiations stalled.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Flair's management is also trying to drag out the process in the hope that things also turn in their favour. Like say, that really bad recession economists are calling for in 2023. Time is on their side, booking an arbitrator now will probably not get you a date for at least around 12 months. Plenty of time for something to happen.

I can assure you that the company has zero interest in dragging out any negotiations. Unfortunately, negotiations also take longer than anyone would like to get right, especially for a first contract under ALPA. It's not in anyone's interest to have confusing sections or missing items like the current CBA.

There is nothing special about a "first contract with ALPA". They're professionals who have whole teams and departments dedicated to negotiations, nothing new just because it's a new company. Forgive me if I'm skeptical when Flair management pipes into a thread to specifically claim they're not deliberately dragging out the process. After all, you certainly wouldn't say otherwise, now would you?

It is very much in the company's interest to have confusing sections and missing items in the CBA, and I'm sure they're fighting hard to keep as much of that in there as possible.

[tbaylx]

Things were looking rosy going into negotiations in early 2020, but that quickly changed when covid shut the industry down. As soon as that happened, the company's attitude completely changed and started dragging out the process. After all, they weren't losing pilots anymore and now had a stack of resumes larger than they've ever seen before. The wind had completely shifted in the company's favour and not only they they know it, they knew it would be a while before things got better for the pilots. So they just crossed their arms and dug their heels. This lead to the process going into arbitration after negotiations stalled.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Flair's management is also trying to drag out the process in the hope that things also turn in their favour. Like say, that really bad recession economists are calling for in 2023. Time is on their side, booking an arbitrator now will probably not get you a date for at least around 12 months. Plenty of time for something to happen.

I can assure you that the company has zero interest in dragging out any negotiations. Unfortunately, negotiations also take longer than anyone would like to get right, especially for a first contract under ALPA. It's not in anyone's interest to have confusing sections or missing items like the current CBA.

There is nothing special about a "first contract with ALPA". They're professionals who have whole teams and departments dedicated to negotiations, nothing new just because it's a new company. Forgive me if I'm skeptical when Flair management pipes into a thread to specifically claim they're not deliberately dragging out the process. After all, you certainly wouldn't say otherwise, now would you?

It is very much in the company's interest to have confusing sections and missing items in the CBA, and I'm sure they're fighting hard to keep as much of that in there as possible.

So true, there's nothing management and the ALPA reps like better than spending hours sorting out emails regarding confusing sections that everyone interprets differently. If you honestly believe that then you aren't working for the same company that I am.

[Tbayer2021]

I can assure you that the company has zero interest in dragging out any negotiations. Unfortunately, negotiations also take longer than anyone would like to get right, especially for a first contract under ALPA. It's not in anyone's interest to have confusing sections or missing items like the current CBA.

There is nothing special about a "first contract with ALPA". They're professionals who have whole teams and departments dedicated to negotiations, nothing new just because it's a new company. Forgive me if I'm skeptical when Flair management pipes into a thread to specifically claim they're not deliberately dragging out the process. After all, you certainly wouldn't say otherwise, now would you?

It is very much in the company's interest to have confusing sections and missing items in the CBA, and I'm sure they're fighting hard to keep as much of that in there as possible.

So true, there's nothing management and the ALPA reps like better than spending hours sorting out emails regarding confusing sections that everyone interprets differently. If you honestly believe that then you aren't working for the same company that I am.

We certainly aren't working for the same company, and I'm very thankful for that. My point is that companies tend to enjoy grey areas in the contract because it lets them interpret things in a way that suits them. I've seen it at every company I've worked for, unionized or not, so I doubt Flair is some magical exception. While the membership can disagree and grievances can be filed, it can be a lengthy process and the company essentially gets to interpret the point in question to their advantage in the mean time.

I saw first hand how hard a company will fight to keep certain things open ended and try to limit the ways the union wanted to tighten up language.

[tbaylx]

There is nothing special about a "first contract with ALPA". They're professionals who have whole teams and departments dedicated to negotiations, nothing new just because it's a new company. Forgive me if I'm skeptical when Flair management pipes into a thread to specifically claim they're not deliberately dragging out the process. After all, you certainly wouldn't say otherwise, now would you?

It is very much in the company's interest to have confusing sections and missing items in the CBA, and I'm sure they're fighting hard to keep as much of that in there as possible.

So true, there's nothing management and the ALPA reps like better than spending hours sorting out emails regarding confusing sections that everyone interprets differently. If you honestly believe that then you aren't working for the same company that I am.

We certainly aren't working for the same company, and I'm very thankful for that. My point is that companies tend to enjoy grey areas in the contract because it lets them interpret things in a way that suits them. I've seen it at every company I've worked for, unionized or not, so I doubt Flair is some magical exception. While the membership can disagree and grievances can be filed, it can be a lengthy process and the company essentially gets to interpret the point in question to their advantage in the mean time.

I saw first hand how hard a company will fight to keep certain things open ended and try to limit the ways the union wanted to tighten up language.

If you don't work here then not sure why you believe your opinion on contract negotiations and the airline are anything other than pure speculation based on your personal experiences at other companies.

We're pretty much a magical exception except it's not magic, it requires having a management team and a MEC that can work together and appreciate each other's point of view and position. Westjet used to have that so we're far from the first. We've all seen what happens at other companies where they brag about how many open grievances there are. We don't enjoy grey areas. We prefer to have clear contract language that prevents misunderstandings or abuse.

We also prefer to continue to operate in a cooperative manner for as long as possible to avoid the issues that seem to be prevalent at other airlines in Canada.

[Tbayer2021]

So true, there's nothing management and the ALPA reps like better than spending hours sorting out emails regarding confusing sections that everyone interprets differently. If you honestly believe that then you aren't working for the same company that I am.

We certainly aren't working for the same company, and I'm very thankful for that. My point is that companies tend to enjoy grey areas in the contract because it lets them interpret things in a way that suits them. I've seen it at every company I've worked for, unionized or not, so I doubt Flair is some magical exception. While the membership can disagree and grievances can be filed, it can be a lengthy process and the company essentially gets to interpret the point in question to their advantage in the mean time.

I saw first hand how hard a company will fight to keep certain things open ended and try to limit the ways the union wanted to tighten up language.

If you don't work here then not sure why you believe your opinion on contract negotiations and the airline are anything other than pure speculation based on your personal experiences at other companies.

We're pretty much a magical exception except it's not magic, it requires having a management team and a MEC that can work together and appreciate each other's point of view and position. Westjet used to have that so we're far from the first. We've all seen what happens at other companies where they brag about how many open grievances there are. We don't enjoy grey areas. We prefer to have clear contract language that prevents misunderstandings or abuse.

We also prefer to continue to operate in a cooperative manner for as long as possible to avoid the issues that seem to be prevalent at other airlines in Canada.

This is just amazing. One doesn't have to work at a place to see whats happening. The contract is taking this long for the exact same reason it always drags out everywhere else. The company doesn't want to give pilot what they're worth, its that pure and simple.

Yes, a management team and MEC that can work together indeed, where have I heard similar words before? You're dancing around the campfire while singing Kumbaya as well? I hope you're right about the clear contract language. But my money is on that contract being just a handful of pages long when it s all said and done. Filled with holes, grey areas and outright omissions due to the fact that bargaining capital had to be spent elsewhere.

But again, sure hope I'm wrong and that it turns out to be a very comprehensive contract that covers all these grey areas companies tend to love.

[MAX8 Driver]

Personally, I give anyone and everyone the benefit of the doubt until they compromise trust. At this point in time, Flair management has demonstrated themselves as pilots first with reasonable company stand points. End result being a healthy pilot and management relationship.

Professional relationships will outperform ten fold when it comes to an operation. A happy pilot group will perform and adapt to management demands. If the relationship deteriorates, the company will be seen in the news rather quickly.

[Arnie Pye]

I am told that the scheduling section went from 2 paragraphs to 5 pages. There were a lot of holes in the old contract. Also a lot of things that applied better to the context of a charter outfit that are no longer a good fit for a scheduled airline.

[co-joe]

I am told that the scheduling section went from 2 paragraphs to 5 pages. There were a lot of holes in the old contract. Also a lot of things that applied better to the context of a charter outfit that are no longer a good fit for a scheduled airline.

That actually could be a real positive. The old CBA wasn't just pre scheduled airline, it was pre CARs duty regs changes, we had 3 bases and the "lmd" yvr/yxx was one base, soon we'll have 7 crew bases...stronger, more precise language would really cut down on the confusion in scheduling and bidding especially when it comes to training new schedulers.