Flow through to AC

[belgianmoon]

Message from Chorus(Jazz)- The CPA with Air Canada has been extended to 2035.

[QKZXKV]

Message from Chorus(Jazz)- The CPA with Air Canada has been extended to 2035.

Don't remind me

[Inverted2]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

[canadian_aviator_4]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

I think quitting and going to competitor can be a good decision. Lots have done it and gone to ac quicker. Just depends on how much experience you have going to a competitor and whether you will be marketable to ac compared to the competition being hired.

[rudder]

I believe that there is a silver lining here, in that there will need to be some serious conversations going forward with regard to the contract and whether it's attractive enough to maintain hiring at a level that allows Jazz to function. The bean counters at Air Canada have been attempting over the last decade to engineer sub-par contracts that save the airline and its regional partners enormous sums of money in labour costs. Now they are reaping the reward of their efforts - we're entering into a new pilot shortage and the present working conditions are no longer sufficient to attract enough new hires to allow the airline to function in the way that they'd like to. I hope that Jazz pilots and ALPA will be among the first in this country to capitalize on this new dynamic to make significant improvements in the pilots' favour.

There is no such conversation going on.

Meanwhile, pilots are figuring out that there are better paths to AC than Jazz. AC is effectively telling pilots where to go by its hiring demographics.

Any carrier that is non-responsive in this new era of pilot supply competition will soon discover that they are nobody’s first choice. Responsive is not just compensation if there were other guarantees proffered that are no longer being honoured.

[Fanblade]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

[Fanblade]

I believe that there is a silver lining here, in that there will need to be some serious conversations going forward with regard to the contract and whether it's attractive enough to maintain hiring at a level that allows Jazz to function. The bean counters at Air Canada have been attempting over the last decade to engineer sub-par contracts that save the airline and its regional partners enormous sums of money in labour costs. Now they are reaping the reward of their efforts - we're entering into a new pilot shortage and the present working conditions are no longer sufficient to attract enough new hires to allow the airline to function in the way that they'd like to. I hope that Jazz pilots and ALPA will be among the first in this country to capitalize on this new dynamic to make significant improvements in the pilots' favour.

There is no such conversation going on.

Meanwhile, pilots are figuring out that there are better paths to AC than Jazz. AC is effectively telling pilots where to go by its hiring demographics.

Any carrier that is non-responsive in this new era of pilot supply competition will soon discover that they are nobody’s first choice. Responsive is not just compensation if there were other guarantees proffered that are no longer being honoured.

Exactly,

Let the competition for pilots begin!

And AC could always change course. Which they very much might when the consequences of their current choices show their ugly face.

But they are not going to open their wallet on hypothetical. They won’t do that until smacked in the face with what is likely to happen.

We can all see the problem and the solution. But it takes $. They won’t go there until the pain threshold hold is an eleven out of ten.

Short sighted yes.

Stand back and watch. Don’t try to solve it for them. Let supply and demand to its job.

[rudder]

I am truly curious how many of those Jazz captains that were about to flow to AC will leave Jazz to other non AC airlines now that they know the flow has stopped. This may cause a staffing shortage either way unless Jazz can step up and raise pay or offer seniority numbers at AC.

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

As for Jazz, it has been largely unsuccessful in attracting any meaningful volume of qualified DEC applicants nor DEC bidders on the initial courses. It also needs to seriously rethink entry level pay.

Flow was never going to be enough to fill the rapidly emptying seats since the opportunities out there are expanding and not limited to AC. And now flow has a huge question mark beside it.

[Fanblade]

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

As for Jazz, it has been largely unsuccessful in attracting any meaningful volume of qualified DEC applicants nor DEC bidders on the initial courses. It also needs to seriously rethink entry level pay.

Flow was never going to be enough to fill the rapidly emptying seats since the opportunities out there are expanding and not limited to AC. And now flow has a huge question mark beside it.

Yes on all counts.

But the key ingredient in $.

AC will only go there if everything else fails.

Stand back and watch. Don’t fix it for them. Wait.

We pilots are trained to see problems and to mitigate them.

In this case? Avoid the temptation to mitigate or solve it for them.

Wait and then leverage.

[Fanblade]

Air Canada ordered to pay passengers $2,000 for flight cancellation caused by crew shortage

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/air-ca ... 2dbisH2N-8

Just wait.

[LittleNelly]

If you are hell bent on AC I wouldn’t quit Jazz to go to a competitor of AC to try and get in quicker. The first thing they will probably ask as is why you quit the “team” only to want to come back. Air Canada will probably see you quitting Jazz as a huge disrespect. The only solution is to reserve seniority numbers when they flow over. Otherwise going behind everyone else OTS means you’re last in and first to be laid off in the next slowdown and I guarantee that will happen sooner or later.

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

As for Jazz, it has been largely unsuccessful in attracting any meaningful volume of qualified DEC applicants nor DEC bidders on the initial courses. It also needs to seriously rethink entry level pay.

Flow was never going to be enough to fill the rapidly emptying seats since the opportunities out there are expanding and not limited to AC. And now flow has a huge question mark beside it.

The best would be if both ACPA and Jazz ALPA refused any kind of flow carrot deal. Stonewall on everything and force Chorus and AC to actually pay up. Look south of the border with regional pay doubling to keep the operation staffed. If pay at jazz dramatically increased it will also put pressure on AC to increase pay. Everybody wins.
AC and Chorus love flow deals because it costs them nothing.

[altiplano]

Air Canada is using a job at AC as a carrot to get lower wages at Jazz. That is what flow through is in their eyes. A free way to get cheap pilots at the feeder. If ACPA were to agree to reserved seniority numbers, then ACPA would be participating in lower wages at Jazz.

We need to stop this constant downward pressure on wages.

For the pilot shortage to have its maximum effect, we need to let supply and demand do its job. Carrots used to artificially lower wages, in opposition to the forces of supply and demand, only benefit AC.

I’m not suggesting flow through agreements don’t have their place. Nor am I saying it’s okay for AC to walk away from their contractual commitments to Jazz pilots either. AC should be aggressively challenged for this.

But asking ACPA to bail out AC’s failure to live up to their obligations, in a manor that would help keep wages lower is anti Union. It would be ACPA acting in a manor that is not in the best interest of the profession as a whole.

Now I get that has been ACPA’s trademark move to pull the industry down. But that has to stop. Unless the old guard retakes ACPA and turns it back into an extension of management reserved numbers are not likely.

What is likely is ACPA let’s AC live with the consequences of its decisions.

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

As for Jazz, it has been largely unsuccessful in attracting any meaningful volume of qualified DEC applicants nor DEC bidders on the initial courses. It also needs to seriously rethink entry level pay.

Flow was never going to be enough to fill the rapidly emptying seats since the opportunities out there are expanding and not limited to AC. And now flow has a huge question mark beside it.

What is AC going to offer to ACPA to revamp the new hire pay scheme?

Right now AC thinks it should get something from ACPA, but the fact is that it's the other way around. Particularly with pilots unable to come here from Jazz.

The line of qualified pilots wanting to go to Air Canada is drying up. AC NEEDS to revamp it's 4 year fixed rate to attract people from the Cargojets or Flairs or Military that don't want to subject themselves to current new hire wawcon.

I think a starting point can be the abolishment of flat pay in return for the reinstatement of %CA FO formula pay ratios, 5% 320/737 raises, and a cross the board, out of main-table pay raise for all AC Pilots. AC NEEDS to start competing and they know it, they try to tell us otherwise though - "piles of resumes" "no pilot shortage" "most desirable airline to work for"

That's before you even get to the Jazz flow issue, and I'm with Fanblade. Come to class on day 1, get your number. That's how it should stay.

No helping them sort it out, it's their problem, they use it to depress wages. Take flow away and the market will sort itself out, Jazz will have to pay better to staff flightdecks, other carriers will have to compete as well, suddenly we start going the right direction.

Remember when Jazz was the best paid regional in NA? Not that long ago, and now? Bottom of the list.

[altiplano]

The best would be if both ACPA and Jazz ALPA refused any kind of flow carrot deal. Stonewall on everything and force Chorus and AC to actually pay up. Look south of the border with regional pay doubling to keep the operation staffed. If pay at jazz dramatically increased it will also put pressure on AC to increase pay. Everybody wins.
AC and Chorus love flow deals because it costs them nothing.

You get it.

Not only do flow deals cost them nothing, they gain from it at our loss.

Make them compete.

[Fanblade]

If MS offered ACPA a dramatically improved new-hire pay scheme at AC in exchange for a PML 1 style seniority deferral arrangement, ACPA would be hard pressed to say no.

Air Canada wants concessions from ACPA to fix new hire pay. They insist on the continuation of zero cost bargaining. If they increase new hire pay they want something of equal value back. They view the new hire wages as something ACPA needs to solve and can be used to limit gains elsewhere during bargaining. They view reserved numbers as zero cost and as such should be handed over for free.

ACPA has been willingly negotiating zero cost for a decade and Air Canada has no interest in a departure from this practice. They are going to stand as firm as possible, for as long as possible, against what they see is unwanted change within ACPA. There is no way they will want to give the change movement any kind of break from zero cost.

Yes they know supply is starting to swing against them. They will use anything in thier power to limit its effects.

In the meantime they are going to hope the change movement fails within ACPA and they eventually get their carrot for free.

[YVR_pushpull12]

Safe to assume everyone has heard the rumour that ACPA & JZA ALPA have been in talks about a reserved seniority for JZA & flat pay removal or modification for the AC group from ACPA.

How about that MEC email. Seemed a little tone def.

[goingmissed]

Safe to assume everyone has heard the rumour that ACPA & JZA ALPA have been in talks about a reserved seniority for JZA & flat pay removal or modification for the AC group from ACPA.

How about that MEC email. Seemed a little tone def.

Rumours don't pay your bills.

[Ash Ketchum]

Safe to assume everyone has heard the rumour that ACPA & JZA ALPA have been in talks about a reserved seniority for JZA & flat pay removal or modification for the AC group from ACPA.

How about that MEC email. Seemed a little tone def.

Rumours don't pay your bills.

I honestly don't think anything will change for the better for either pilot group, this is Canadian aviation after all.

[YVR_pushpull12]

Nobody came to Jazz for good pay hence why the contract was signed the way it is. They wanted stable flow to AC. I get pay for new hires is bad but people complaining about pay who are senior makes no sense. You have not had a contract violation. The young guys/gals did. The young group wanted flow and in return let the senior pilots get a 15 year stable job till they retire with increase in pay back in 2015. This is about the young group getting the shaft and old group trying to reel in some reward. Then the young group is told to have unity.

Safe to assume everyone has heard the rumour that ACPA & JZA ALPA have been in talks about a reserved seniority for JZA & flat pay removal or modification for the AC group from ACPA.

How about that MEC email. Seemed a little tone def.

Rumours don't pay your bills.

[rudder]

Nobody came to Jazz for good pay hence why the contract was signed the way it is. They wanted stable flow to AC. I get pay for new hires is bad but people complaining about pay who are senior makes no sense. You have not had a contract violation. The young guys/gals did. The young group wanted flow and in return let the senior pilots get a 15 year stable job till they retire with increase in pay back in 2015. This is about the young group getting the shaft and old group trying to reel in some reward. Then the young group is told to have unity.

Go back to the way it was: FO pay = 67% of same year CA pay.

If the resulting FO pay or current year 1 CA pay is not stimulating sufficient applications from QUALIFIED pilots, then a further increase will be required.

If you want to stem attrition to Porter by E175 pilots, then the overall Jazz pay system will have to improve including mid and top scale.

It isn’t rocket science.

[WhataYoke]

Air Canada has hired ~160 pilots this year, including the latest PIT course that just started. My understanding is that the intention is to hire 40 pilots per PIT course and run two PIT courses per month for the foreseeable future. That's one more course for September, two for October, two for November, and I'll guess one for December due to the holidays, giving a total of six PIT courses remaining for the year.

Correct on this except that Jazz flt ops advised AC will not be hiring any Jazz pilots for the month of October. That makes AC's contractual obligation almost impossible basis their hiring/training capacity. AC will not fulfill the 60% and both unions already know that.

[Fanblade]

Nobody came to Jazz for good pay hence why the contract was signed the way it is. They wanted stable flow to AC. I get pay for new hires is bad but people complaining about pay who are senior makes no sense. You have not had a contract violation. The young guys/gals did. The young group wanted flow and in return let the senior pilots get a 15 year stable job till they retire with increase in pay back in 2015. This is about the young group getting the shaft and old group trying to reel in some reward. Then the young group is told to have unity.

Go back to the way it was: FO pay = 67% of same year CA pay.

If the resulting FO pay or current year 1 CA pay is not stimulating sufficient applications from QUALIFIED pilots, then a further increase will be required.

If you want to stem attrition to Porter by E175 pilots, then the overall Jazz pay system will have to improve including mid and top scale.

It isn’t rocket science.

As Rudder points out. A good union never wastes leverage. Who cares how the leverage found its way to you. Always employ it. The current leverage doesn't just come from the flow through. The latest ruling that delays and cancelations due to crewing are within the companies control and that they must pay compensation is the other elephant in this. None of us earned that leverage. Who cares. We have been pounded for far too long. Time for everyone to make gains.

I'm at AC and agree with the Jazz MEC.

Just wait. Don't blink.

It will all work out.

[Transition9er2]

Latest PIT at AC only has 29 instead of 40.

Between jazz and AC I’m curious to hear how many full classes they’ve each seen this year.

[negative_g]

Latest PIT at AC only has 29 instead of 40.

Between jazz and AC I’m curious to hear how many full classes they’ve each seen this year.

AC will continue to not fill classes until flat pay is abolished or minimized to one year (but still much higher). Looking at the terrible take home wages at WJ for newer FOs all AC needs to do is offer $80-90/hr to start and we'd likely drain the bottom end of their 737 FO roster.

If AC thought strategically they could lay a significant blow to their direct competitors overnight. Instead I feel like they're too worried about letting ACPA get a big win.

[Transition9er2]

Latest PIT at AC only has 29 instead of 40.

Between jazz and AC I’m curious to hear how many full classes they’ve each seen this year.

AC will continue to not fill classes until flat pay is abolished or minimized to one year (but still much higher). Looking at the terrible take home wages at WJ for newer FOs all AC needs to do is offer $80-90/hr to start and we'd likely drain the bottom end of their 737 FO roster.

If AC thought strategically they could lay a significant blow to their direct competitors overnight. Instead I feel like they're too worried about letting ACPA get a big win.

The same can be said for ANY airline in the country. The first one to significantly raise their wages and become a desirable employer will seriously impact all completion!

[negative_g]

Latest PIT at AC only has 29 instead of 40.

Between jazz and AC I’m curious to hear how many full classes they’ve each seen this year.

AC will continue to not fill classes until flat pay is abolished or minimized to one year (but still much higher). Looking at the terrible take home wages at WJ for newer FOs all AC needs to do is offer $80-90/hr to start and we'd likely drain the bottom end of their 737 FO roster.

If AC thought strategically they could lay a significant blow to their direct competitors overnight. Instead I feel like they're too worried about letting ACPA get a big win.

The same can be said for ANY airline in the country. The first one to significantly raise their wages and become a desirable employer will seriously impact all completion!

It honestly boggles my mind that AC hasn't jumped at the opportunity yet. 900 vacancies and I'm sure the Oct bid will be even more. Perhaps that's why it was delayed? If they're talking with ACPA right now why show a massive bid with even more vacancies while you're probably trying to get more concessions. Not that that we have anything left to give away at this point.