ACPA LOA?

[Sharklasers]

[quote=Sharklasers post_id=<a href="tel:1215867">1215867</a> time=<a href="tel:1664280857">1664280857</a> user_id=53543]
Don’t misunderstand , this is the MEC chairs baby. This is the P4C controlled MECs first kick at an MOA and the old guard has been frozen out since early spring. This was negotiated entirely by the newly appointed 2 person NC long after P4C demolished the old guard from the committees. Talk to your elected reps, you’ll be surprised who voted yes on this and who voted no.

I am certainly not saying that the old guard would have done better but blame where blame is due.

My biggest takeaway is how we have been told we don’t have a pathway to getting yos for the furloughs and yet seemed to have no issue getting step on yos for pay and progression for the Jazz pilots.

I guarantee YVR YUL and YWG voted yes. The same YVR reps who had the majority of their base vote to recall them.

The YUL Chair is spouting off already on his Facebook Fan page that there's "no way we could have gotten Yos for the furloughs because then the company would have to give it to 20,000 other employees".
[/quote]


I guarantee you are wrong.
Ask your elected reps.

[Outlaw58]

My biggest takeaway is how we have been told we don’t have a pathway to getting yos for the furloughs and yet seemed to have no issue getting step on yos for pay and progression for the Jazz pilots.

Apples and Oranges

58

[fish4life]

My biggest takeaway is how we have been told we don’t have a pathway to getting yos for the furloughs and yet seemed to have no issue getting step on yos for pay and progression for the Jazz pilots.

Apples and Oranges

58

How is it apples to oranges in both cases pilots will start at AC then leave AC on a LOA. If this is the case it should be open to any current pilots as well so if you have been on property for 5 months you can take a LOA go back to your old job and make more money while you move up the pay scale

[rudder]

My biggest takeaway is how we have been told we don’t have a pathway to getting yos for the furloughs and yet seemed to have no issue getting step on yos for pay and progression for the Jazz pilots.

Apples and Oranges

58

How is it apples to oranges in both cases pilots will start at AC then leave AC on a LOA. If this is the case it should be open to any current pilots as well so if you have been on property for 5 months you can take a LOA go back to your old job and make more money while you move up the pay scale

Under the terms of PML 1 (with ACPA concurrence), ANY Pilot hired by AC could defer their PIT course for up to 2 years with a reserved seniority number that coincided with their original PIT course and no credit for tenure.

I do not see any reason that ACPA (the AC pilots collectively) cannot alter terms of seniority, including offering a better deal to the Jazz pilots than OTS. However, it seems somewhat tone deaf to say that a pilot that has never attended an AC PIT course will accrue tenure during an inactive period and there are pilots that have attended an AC PIT course that were given no credit for tenure during their inactive period.

ACPA does not bargain for 20000 employees who were laid off. They do bargain for the 600 pilots that were laid off.

[TheStig]

I can’t imagine why anyone would vote yes to a contract amendment that isn’t at a minimum equivalent to inflation? Nobody that votes yes to this MOA should ever complain about starting wages, this is the best opportunity to fix them, not next year or 2024.

We have leverage to ensure that if pilots don’t get properly paid, airplanes get parked next summer. This is classic ACPA negotiation, a couple of very minor gains for each seniority group in exchange for rescuing the company from its own mess. Furloughing 600 pilots was always going to blow up in their face, they must have known that the pilot group would bail them out when needed. This will pass 60/40.

[rudder]

I can’t imagine why anyone would vote yes to a contract amendment that isn’t at a minimum equivalent to inflation? Nobody that votes yes to this MOA should ever complain about starting wages, this is the best opportunity to fix them, not next year or 2024.

We have leverage to ensure that if pilots don’t get properly paid, airplanes get parked next summer. This is classic ACPA negotiation, a couple of very minor gains for each seniority group in exchange for rescuing the company from its own mess. Furloughing 600 pilots was always going to blow up in their face, they must have known that the pilot group would bail them out when needed. This will pass 60/40.

Yup. Just a few suggestions:

1. Reinstate tenure for COVID furloughed pilots.

2. Year 1 flat pay = current year 4 flat pay. Formula pay year 2 and beyond. Bypass pay if held in current position or training delayed beyond 12 months following line check.

3. No more freighter pay rates. Ever. Mainline rates apply.

4. No more Rouge LOU. Ever. Mainline WAWCON applies.

5. Current scale plus 10% on pay rates with agreement that next contract cannot further bump pay rates in year 1 of its term.

In exchange, the company get all of their asks contained in the MOA.

I know this is a bit of an Xmas tree. But the ACPA MEC bulletin said this was about ‘priorities’. And pay was the #1 priority. Who at AC believes there will be more leverage in late 2023/early 2024?

[Rider Pride]

Flat pay until off probation and then a liveable salary to live in Toronto. Nothing less! I’m tired of living with my parents.

[Malfunction]

It's so clear now that ACPA=Managment. This deal is not beneficial to the pilots at all. Few small carrots. I hope all AC pilots vote no. Show them your worth more.

[rudder]

It's so clear now that ACPA=Managment. This deal is not beneficial to the pilots at all. Few small carrots. I hope all AC pilots vote no. Show them your worth more.

There is a not-so-fine line between cooperation and Stockholm Syndrome.

CR always went for the jugular and never apologized for using that tactic. That is the reason there is so much lost ground to be made up. Baby steps means it will take forever.

Meanwhile, south of the border……..

[GeoffPilot]

[quote=Sharklasers post_id=<a href="tel:1215867">1215867</a> time=<a href="tel:1664280857">1664280857</a> user_id=53543]
Don’t misunderstand , this is the MEC chairs baby. This is the P4C controlled MECs first kick at an MOA and the old guard has been frozen out since early spring. This was negotiated entirely by the newly appointed 2 person NC long after P4C demolished the old guard from the committees. Talk to your elected reps, you’ll be surprised who voted yes on this and who voted no.

I am certainly not saying that the old guard would have done better but blame where blame is due.

My biggest takeaway is how we have been told we don’t have a pathway to getting yos for the furloughs and yet seemed to have no issue getting step on yos for pay and progression for the Jazz pilots.

I guarantee YVR YUL and YWG voted yes. The same YVR reps who had the majority of their base vote to recall them.

The YUL Chair is spouting off already on his Facebook Fan page that there's "no way we could have gotten Yos for the furloughs because then the company would have to give it to 20,000 other employees".

I guarantee you are wrong.
Ask your elected reps.
[/quote]

Lol Sharklaser

Mr Support the YVR Chairs when 68% of their base wants them turfed

I guarantee those 2 support any shill deal that comes from the company.

There is no question this is the MEC Chair's "baby". That will be clear in the webinar & road shows

But don't confuse that with P4C. The Chair made his bed and now he is going to have sleep in it.

Along with the old guard, LRD, the consultants and our ex Manager turned ACPA CEO that advise him

Time to torch ACPA once & for all

[Cavalier44]

This will pass 60/40.

I don't think so. I haven't spoken to a single person in favour. Sample size of one, I know, but I don't see what would compel any member of the pilot group to vote yes to this.

up. Just a few suggestions:

1. Reinstate tenure for COVID furloughed pilots.

2. Year 1 flat pay = current year 4 flat pay. Formula pay year 2 and beyond. Bypass pay if held in current position or training delayed beyond 12 months following line check.

3. No more freighter pay rates. Ever. Mainline rates apply.

4. No more Rouge LOU. Ever. Mainline WAWCON applies.

5. Current scale plus 10% on pay rates with agreement that next contract cannot further bump pay rates in year 1 of its term.

In exchange, the company get all of their asks contained in the MOA.

I know this is a bit of an Xmas tree. But the ACPA MEC bulletin said this was about ‘priorities’. And pay was the #1 priority. Who at AC believes there will be more leverage in late 2023/early 2024?

Lots of good proposals here. The pilot group needs to get out of its concessionary mindset and the idea of "zero-cost" bargaining be killed off for good. Either we make incremental improvements, or we vote no - it's very simple. Come back to us when you have a better offer.

[negative_g]

My biggest takeaway is how we have been told we don’t have a pathway to getting yos for the furloughs and yet seemed to have no issue getting step on yos for pay and progression for the Jazz pilots.

Apples and Oranges

58

How is it apples to oranges in both cases pilots will start at AC then leave AC on a LOA. If this is the case it should be open to any current pilots as well so if you have been on property for 5 months you can take a LOA go back to your old job and make more money while you move up the pay scale

Yeah you could take an LOA and go fly a Medevac for more money for 1-2 years.

[negative_g]

.

[negative_g]

ACPA does not bargain for 20000 employees who were laid off. They do bargain for the 600 pilots that were laid off.

The YUL Chair seems to disagree. This is the kind of people we have on our MEC who seem to think that we also negotiate for the rest of the company employees. This kind of thinking is why we are where we are after the last 20 years.

We're all 1-2 years now behind on our future Captain pay, which will amount to a lot of money over the course of your career. Also, how is it the same for anyone coming in when Jazz pilots are going to get to defer for 1.5 years and enter the company just as they hit year 3 formula pay? After making their 90-120k a year in the left seat at Jazz for the next 1.5-2 years?

[JHR]

I guarantee this will become another wasted opportunity

[Caterpillar]

Just out of curiosity... Why do you think the Express hiring portal has been temporary shutdown?

Would it be to protect the current list of applicants?

[fish4life]

Apples and Oranges

58

How is it apples to oranges in both cases pilots will start at AC then leave AC on a LOA. If this is the case it should be open to any current pilots as well so if you have been on property for 5 months you can take a LOA go back to your old job and make more money while you move up the pay scale

Yeah you could take an LOA and go fly a Medevac for more money for 1-2 years.

Not sure why you are laughing lots of medevac cpt jobs are well over 100k. In fact lots of jobs pay higher than the first few years at AC

[negative_g]

How is it apples to oranges in both cases pilots will start at AC then leave AC on a LOA. If this is the case it should be open to any current pilots as well so if you have been on property for 5 months you can take a LOA go back to your old job and make more money while you move up the pay scale

Yeah you could take an LOA and go fly a Medevac for more money for 1-2 years.

Not sure why you are laughing lots of medevac cpt jobs are well over 100k. In fact lots of jobs pay higher than the first few years at AC

I'm laughing that AC pay is so terrible that someone year 1-4 could take an LOA right now (if they offered them) and go fly medevac for $100-$130k. I'm not laughing at the medevac pay.

[Dockjock]

Guys we’re 80% behind on pay and falling. We need a 80% raise. Set your sights far, far, far higher. A couple little step ups and 2.9%? We need 29%, and then some. Game on, this is no preview show this is it. Agree to this and we’re cooked. Woulda coulda…

Advice to new hires and soon to be hired. Don’t get too focussed on Me. Here. Now. Think of the long term. Regarding YOS for those laid off, why? You weren’t employed here for that time. I just don’t get it. Tough bounce but that’s how it works. It’s never easy and you’re not special, none of us are.

[negative_g]

Advice to new hires and soon to be hired. Don’t get too focussed on Me. Here. Now. Think of the long term. Regarding YOS for those laid off, why? You weren’t employed here for that time. I just don’t get it. Tough bounce but that’s how it works. It’s never easy and you’re not special, none of us are.

It's the fact that we're negotiating a YOA accrual LOA to help the company keep people at Jazz, pilots that don't even work here het, but they can't do the same for the 600? That's the issue. Jazz pilots also got CEWS and they also got most if not all of their YOS while on "furlough" so why not us?

[Dockjock]

Would any of that matter if you made $100/hr more than you make now? Don’t take your eye off the ball.

[negative_g]

Would any of that matter if you made $100/hr more than you make now? Don’t take your eye off the ball.

Yes, but that's not the case right now in any capacity. Loss of YOS effects future Captain pay, it's not just about getting off flat pay. I'd love to make $100/hr more but good luck with this union, and certainly not before 2024.

[alkaseltzer]

ACPA does not bargain for 20000 employees who were laid off. They do bargain for the 600 pilots that were laid off.

The YUL Chair seems to disagree. This is the kind of people we have on our MEC who seem to think that we also negotiate for the rest of the company employees. This kind of thinking is why we are where we are after the last 20 years.

We're all 1-2 years now behind on our future Captain pay, which will amount to a lot of money over the course of your career. Also, how is it the same for anyone coming in when Jazz pilots are going to get to defer for 1.5 years and enter the company just as they hit year 3 formula pay? After making their 90-120k a year in the left seat at Jazz for the next 1.5-2 years?

I see where he’s coming from. Not unreasonable.

But to give Jazz pilots YOS. F*** that.

P4C controls the MEC. They just want to take step 2 towards amalgamating Jazz and AC into ALPA. First it’s IFALPA, then this MOA…next will be the ALPA vote.

It’s too obvious.

[negative_g]

ACPA does not bargain for 20000 employees who were laid off. They do bargain for the 600 pilots that were laid off.

The YUL Chair seems to disagree. This is the kind of people we have on our MEC who seem to think that we also negotiate for the rest of the company employees. This kind of thinking is why we are where we are after the last 20 years.

We're all 1-2 years now behind on our future Captain pay, which will amount to a lot of money over the course of your career. Also, how is it the same for anyone coming in when Jazz pilots are going to get to defer for 1.5 years and enter the company just as they hit year 3 formula pay? After making their 90-120k a year in the left seat at Jazz for the next 1.5-2 years?

I see where he’s coming from. Not unreasonable.

But to give Jazz pilots YOS. F*** that.

P4C controls the MEC. They just want to take step 2 towards amalgamating Jazz and AC into ALPA. First it’s IFALPA, then this MOA…next will be the ALPA vote.

It’s too obvious.

Lol, you must be YUL based if that's what you think is going on. Buying into the FUD (fear uncertainty and doubt).

[QKZXKV]

What another turd we get to choose from again... Gotta love Canadian aviation. Oh and ALPA wouldn't have done much better for us!