sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:41 am
My math was based on the fact the my colleague’s are all year one new hires. This MOA puts them on formula pay two years earlier. At north of a $55k/yr increase that is over $100k.
Wait a minute. Are you so out of touch that you think flat pay is the same for all four years?
Where are you getting 55k increase? Time to go back to school, your math is wrong. Very very wrong.
nowind wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 8:09 pm
Im sure its gonna pass at 60% just like the cargo deal did.
A 60% result is a failure to represent the group. Sure, it is a majority, but how is 51% pass a ‘win’? 49% of your constituents feel left behind.
It is this mentality (50%+1) at the bargaining table that leads to underwhelming agreements and fractured Pilot solidarity.
The worst thing any bargaining agent can do is alienate up to half of its members. Hell, even 25% is too many.
Exactly,
Yet ACPA does it all the time.
Then wonders why we are fractured.
Part of me thinks the company and ACPA know their window of opportunity is closing. Based on the latest election results. Change has control come January
sportingrifle wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:41 am
My math was based on the fact the my colleague’s are all year one new hires. This MOA puts them on formula pay two years earlier. At north of a $55k/yr increase that is over $100k.
Wait a minute. Are you so out of touch that you think flat pay is the same for all four years?
Where are you getting 55k increase? Time to go back to school, your math is wrong. Very very wrong.
If one were to cherry pick a case it is probably true. Let’s say a new hire forced on to the 777 FO position. Year 3 and 4 would be a good uplift.
But cherry picking a specific situation that might apply to tiny percentage of people. Deliberately misleading.
The 1980 figure was shocking.
No need to compare ourselves to US pilots. Most Canadian airline pilot wages are so far behind these numbers it is ridiculous.
The US carriers are also very open about sharing their MOA/MOS or whatever you want to call it. Alaska shared theirs recently. Young whippersnappers who are on flat pay, take a look at what the US version of WestJet is going to get paid/retro-paid... Old guys who this doesn't affect, pls keep your opinions to yourself unless asked and let the younger group decide what's best (this ain't it).
Also, ALPA Canada is not the answer to every problem. The rot runs deep there too!
QKZXKV wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:30 am
The US carriers are also very open about sharing their MOA/MOS or whatever you want to call it. Alaska shared theirs recently. Young whippersnappers who are on flat pay, take a look at what the US version of WestJet is going to get paid/retro-paid... Old guys who this doesn't affect, pls keep your opinions to yourself unless asked and let the younger group decide what's best (this ain't it).
Also, ALPA Canada is not the answer to every problem. The rot runs deep there too!
The 17 year deal at Jazz that you are sh!!ting on included a 60% flow and a max 10% PFO rate. Prior to that Jazz people were PFO’d at a much higher rate. The JAZ MEC used bargaining capital to increase flow that you have clearly used to make it to the NHL. So you might want to thank the ALPA Canada MEC of Jazz that you were part of instead of making stupid accusations. You are welcome.
Have you considered the irony that in the same week(like two days apart) WestJet mainline pilots voted unanimously to cancel the PTA(current Encore Pilots grandfathered) to force the company to raise salary at Encore(because why the hell would you go to Encore unless you got a mainline number) and recognize one MEC for both Encore and mainline, meanwhile ACPA sends a deal to the members to ratify that will ensure Jazz pay rates remain depressed?
They really think this MOA improves our bargaining position for 2023. It does the exact opposite. It allows them to attract pilots as cheaply as possible, without raising wages across the board. This is the best leverage we'll ever have and they want us give it up for some magic beans.
FL030 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:52 am
I can't watch anymore. They keep calling it "big gains".
I love how they keep pushing the 2% pay increase in April still being included as part of the ‘gains.’
It’s embarrassing they think like this.
-Jimmy
So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.
Dont get me wrong, Im a big no, but honnest question, if they dont come back to us what is gonna be our leverage next year and 2024. The hiring boom will be done at ac and we wont have much leverage left anyway.
FL030 wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:52 am
I can't watch anymore. They keep calling it "big gains".
I love how they keep pushing the 2% pay increase in April still being included as part of the ‘gains.’
It’s embarrassing they think like this.
-Jimmy
So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.
Nobody said it had too.
Cargo wet lease. Fine remove 10% discount on 767. Ensure all future cargo ops are flown at the normal formula rate. Remove that weak language about the 77F.
Jazz flow through. Okay. Remove 4 year flat pay. After probation straight on to formula. Once the above is all taken care of, then raise all rates by 10%. And 5% a year until the end of the contract due to current inflation.
That’s a start, otherwise come back later when you have more to offer.
Been here 11 years. It’s garbage.
Last week, nobody was even thinking of this, and all of a sudden it’s panic mode.
nowind wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:56 am
Dont get me wrong, Im a big no, but honnest question, if they dont come back to us what is gonna be our leverage next year and 2024. The hiring boom will be done at ac and we wont have much leverage left anyway.
Whats the plan to get real gains?
Murray said they're planning to hire what, 2700 pilots by 2025? He let the cat out of the bag.
Good luck attracting quality pilots in that amount of numbers at the current starting AND formula pay. The company has no choice but to address compensation across the board and working conditions, and this was the first opportunity we had to do so. And what they presented is not enough in exchange for access to our seniority list. Our lifestyles at AC are terrible, and now they want us to fly more hours a year? Talk about a NC that is completely disconnected from reality and the members on the line. Not to mention the Jazz pilots and MEC is blindsided by this deal and we take away their leverage to extract gains. Lots of talk about unity, but that's all it is. I hope January when the MEC truly flips that things will change.
We need ALPA. We need it now. ACPA is died long ago.
I love how they keep pushing the 2% pay increase in April still being included as part of the ‘gains.’
It’s embarrassing they think like this.
-Jimmy
So exactly what kind of "gains" where or are you expecting, what would be considered a reasonable gain at this point? It's never going to jump immediately to the remuneration being seen south of the 49th parallel.
Nobody said it had too.
Cargo wet lease. Fine remove 10% discount on 767. Ensure all future cargo ops are flown at the normal formula rate. Remove that weak language about the 77F.
Jazz flow through. Okay. Remove 4 year flat pay. After probation straight on to formula. Once the above is all taken care of, then raise all rates by 10%. And 5% a year until the end of the contract due to current inflation.
That’s a start, otherwise come back later when you have more to offer.
Been here 11 years. It’s garbage.
Last week, nobody was even thinking of this, and all of a sudden it’s panic mode.
And remove the transborder Scope nonsense and the increase in DBMs from the deal.
The corporation has known this was going to be an issue for a very long time, as usual they push it to the last minute and yell FIRE. They've had all spring and summer to come to the table with real offers to fix their issues and in classic Air Canada fashion they left it until the house is on fire. And expect the pilot group to jump when they say jump.
Do we really think FOPS is going to go to the board and say "well the pilots said no, we have to reduce our flying for next year". That person would find themselves jobless pretty quickly.
The guy is a mess so whatever. From what I reading here, If this deal is voted down it is not the Jazz flow piece that is the showstopper. However I implore you to understand that a rising tide floats all boats. You want to compare yourselves to the gains that have been made in the US. Surely you realize those gains have been made by working together with the various CPA carriers in the US? If you vote down this TA then it will make it difficult for AC to recruit pilots from both Jazz(because doing so will compromise the Jazz operations) and off the street(because flat pay sucks).
Don’t you get it? Vote this thing down and the ACPA MEC and Jazz MEC can work together to get something that benefits everyone by working together
