ACPA LOA?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Please explain the permanent concessions.

Seriously Barry?

SCOPE
Training Language
DBM Lets
Tentative Displacement

and the biggest permanent give: historic leverage we will likely never see again, squandered on peanuts

Yesmassapayson

Firstly, I know Barry but I am not Barry. Wrong guy.

SCOPE. 55 seat jets and 80 seat turboprops have absolutely no impact on any AC pilot. It is not ACPA’s job to protect Jazz jobs.
Training Language. Improves training pilot pay and allows larger blocks during training only at a pilots discretion. Expires in 12 months.
Cargo wet lease. Expires in 12 months.
DBM’s..expires in 12 months.
Tentative displacement…a win for pilots who now will be released from flights 24 hours in advance instead of 3:15 in advance. Huge benefit for commuters. Not sure but I think unfortunately this will also end in 12 months.

As far as squandering leverage goes - total non issue. The planned hiring requirements are making the pilot shortage an even bigger issue going forward. Much more than currently so. This MOA is about training who we plan to hire in the next 6 months.
I just confirmed with ACPA rep that my math on new hire wages is correct.

You really need to get off the keyboard and watch the webinar or read some of the info. You are demonstrating that you really have little understanding of the MOA.

You should take your own advice and watch the webinar. It was mentioned twice that the scope, training “flexibility” and the DBMs were permanent concessions in the contract. Nothing temporary about them.

[sportingrifle]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.
But scope doesn’t affect us and training is at pilots discretion. Abolition of 2 years of flat pay (Honestly, we all know it will end anyway, just not quite so soon), full pay for any future cargo aircraft(This is a big deal, there are going to be a lot of them, part of the reason for the planned large bids) and the pay uplift for instructors are all permanent.

[negative_g]

Only 777Fs. And only if they are integrated with the passenger fleet. Read the language in the MOA, it's very clear what it says. As soon as they have 4-5 777Fs and it makes sense to break it off to it's own bid position you can be guaranteed they'll be coming after that 10% through the arbitration avenue in the Cargo MOA. Cargo needs a day cap at 16 like our cargojet friends, and a minimum monthly guarantee. Cargo flying can be very unproductive the last thing we want is our cargo coworkers to be working 21+ days a month for 85 credit.

There's a lot of things wrong with this deal. The DBMs is a huge deal, that's 60+ WB jobs gone. Forever. That's you working more days per month in the summer, that's more unproductive flying and less open time, less draft etc.

[Ifly]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.
But scope doesn’t affect us

It's only 5 dashes on the island, what could possibly go wrong?

[bcflyer]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.
But scope doesn’t affect us and training is at pilots discretion. Abolition of 2 years of flat pay (Honestly, we all know it will end anyway, just not quite so soon), full pay for any future cargo aircraft(This is a big deal, there are going to be a lot of them, part of the reason for the planned large bids) and the pay uplift for instructors are all permanent.

Scope most definitely affects us. If they can outsource a bunch of regional flying away from Jazz to another carrier that fixes the pilot shortage at Jazz, which frees up pilots to come here, which solves the pilot issue here, which takes away the only leverage we have. Everyone loses. No reason to raise pay rates here or at Jazz. So yes scope most definitely affects us.

Full pay is only for the 777 and as mentioned above it will disappear as soon as the ink is dry on the agreement. (Otherwise why the extra language in the MOA?)

I haven’t heard anything about planned large bids you mention except for rumours. Can you show me where to look to see those details?
I highly doubt that AC will shelve expansion plans because we vote no. The shareholders wouldn’t like that much.

[altiplano]

Ok thanks, I missed the DBM’s.

Increased dbms alone are a loss of 400 jobs.


But scope doesn’t affect us and training is at pilots discretion.

SCOPE DOESN'T AFFECT US.
Are you fucking kidding? Scope is everything. What do you think these are? Routes to nowhere? Give me a fucking break!


Abolition of 2 years of flat pay (Honestly, we all know it will end anyway, just not quite so soon),

Right, they need it, it's coming anyway, why pay for it.



full pay for any future cargo aircraft(This is a big deal, there are going to be a lot of them, part of the reason for the planned large bids)

That's absolutely not true. The deal is 90% pay unless grouped with a passenger aircraft. 777s will be leaving the passenger fleet soon! This is a let, previously the deal was we would negotiate rates.


and the pay uplift for instructors are all permanent.
Instructors? So what? 1% of the group who already scoop primo flying on make up and are guaranteed more than line pilots? Get their choice of days off and vacation? Like good for them if they don't fly the line. But... @#$! the instructors. Line pilots are the ones who deserve the better T&Cs.

[sportingrifle]

Bcflyer..I haven’t seen the bid and if I had, I couldn’t post about it.(I have heard the number and that is why I said a new hire could be a WB F/O or NB Capt. in less than 3 years.) be What I have seen is the contemplated training plan for the fleet I am on and without the MOA it simply isn’t going to happen.
Jazz pilots make little difference to the pilot supply problem. The problem is way bigger than Jazz.

Altiplano…Triples are certainly not leaving the fleet soon. We are actually looking for an additional simulator. Some of the most profitable routes that the company flies that can only be flown (profitably) by the “triple”. We have been told that point blank by both commercial and cargo.

[altiplano]

Bcflyer..I haven’t seen the bid and if I had, I couldn’t post about it.(I have heard the number and that is why I ssid a new hire could be a WB F/O or NB Capt. in less than 3 years.) be What I have seen is the contemplated training plan for the fleet I am on and without the MOA it simply isn’t going to happen.
Jazz pilots make little difference to the pilot supply problem. The problem is way bigger than Jazz.

Altiplano…Triples are certainly not leaving the fleet soon. We are actually looking for an additional simulator. Some of the most profitable routes that the company flies that can only be flown (profitably) by the “triple”. We have been told that point blank by both commercial and cargo.

Soon is perhaps relative, but they already got rid of one 777 during the pandemic and the 200s are next... I expect freighter conversions likely and either more 787s or a new WB, either 350 or 777X to replace the 777 pax operation.

Is that all you have to answer for all your incorrect assertions?

[sportingrifle]

Altiplano…
I think I will just leave it. Sorry about your anger, I was just trying to post some helpful information despite being one of your despised instructors.

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Anyway, gotta go. Time to “ scoop primo flying on make up and be guaranteed more than line pilots? Get my choice of days off and vacation.” Adios, Bon Chance.

[sportingrifle]

Murray Strom, VP of Flt. Ops just announced to a PIT class that the plan is to have 6000 pilots on the property by end of 2024. That is approx 1800 pilots to hire in 26 months, plus all the up training of existing pilots. This was also the number we were told when shown the training plan. Take it for whatever you want.

[negative_g]

Good luck hiring that many pilots with our pay and working conditions. No one wants to work 16-21 days a month with now increased DBM no matter how much money they throw at us.

The fact Murray is sharing this should be raising huge alarms with everyone, and maybe start understanding the massive leverage we have. COLA raises covering the last three years and flat pay to one year, 90k. That's my floor. Oh and YOS for all the pilots who were furloughed. Then we can talk.

[Freshredmeat]

SportingPistol,

You come across as a rich boomer that has spent his whole career voting Yes and selling out this profession and fellow brothers & sisters

If you think flying around in your personal floatplane and passing on management drivel is inspiring the next generation, I can assure you it's doing the opposite

Us noobs expect more, demand more, and will get more by simply saying "hell no"

[sportingrifle]

Does that include walking two picket lines that created some of the working conditions you currently enjoy?

[crashpadcommute]

Does that include walking two picket lines that created some of the working conditions you currently enjoy?

It means not supporting Reps that clearly don't represent the wishes of the membership anymore

Your support of the YVR Base Chairs that love concessionary deals is a key part of the problem

We have leaders in the room deciding the fate of the membership that have zero reflection on the damage that they have already been done

If you could get past management propoganda, you would see this is an easy "NO"

[QKZXKV]

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Ok then leave, stop biasing the newer members with nonsense. As soon as someone admits it doesn't affect them, they don't really think through things properly. Their heart really isn't in it...

I would be willing to bet your boat or 2nd house on the fact that if it did affect you, you would be more vocal like we are. Lucky for you it doesn't and we will never know despite your best efforts to convince us you'd still be in favour of this turd.

[YesMassaPayson]

Firstly, I know Barry but I am not Barry. Wrong guy.

Fooled me, Barry. The hard sell really worked on you

SCOPE. 55 seat jets and 80 seat turboprops have absolutely no impact on any AC pilot. It is not ACPA’s job to protect Jazz jobs.

The scope let lowers the bar for the entire industry. This has a direct impact on us. Its called the race to the bottom. Our leverage is a top down system.

Training Language. Improves training pilot pay and allows larger blocks during training only at a pilots discretion.

AC Can improve training pilot pay any time they want. Its a them problem. Why do we care? Stroke of a pen.

Expires in 12 months.

Wrong. This concession is permanent.

Cargo wet lease. Expires in 12 months.

Wet lease language and credits already exist in our contract. Why would we agree to concessions to make this happen?

DBM’s..expires in 12 months.

No it doesn't. This is a permanent let.

Tentative displacement…a win for pilots who now will be released from flights 24 hours in advance instead of 3:15 in advance. Huge benefit for commuters. Not sure but I think unfortunately this will also end in 12 months.

The 24hrs means nothing when they will never tentatively displace you anymore. This allows them to move you without option to the 4th seat. Huge huge let. Oh, and its permanent. Where are you getting your info?

As far as squandering leverage goes - total non issue. The planned hiring requirements are making the pilot shortage an even bigger issue going forward. Much more than currently so. This MOA is about training who we plan to hire in the next 6 months.
I just confirmed with ACPA rep that my math on new hire wages is correct.

So you agree there is a pilot shortage and yet you are advocating for an agreement that solves this problem for AC....and yet you are trying to claim that this will become a bigger issue going forward? I feel like im talking to my aunt sylvia here

You really need to get off the keyboard and watch the webinar or read some of the info. You are demonstrating that you really have little understanding of the MOA.

The webinar solidified my No vote 100%.

You thought 3 of the major permanent concessions in this deal were temporary in nature....I think its you that needs to do some digging barry.

[rooster]

Altiplano…
I think I will just leave it. Sorry about your anger, I was just trying to post some helpful information despite being one of your despised instructors.

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Anyway, gotta go. Time to “ scoop primo flying on make up and be guaranteed more than line pilots? Get my choice of days off and vacation.” Adios, Bon Chance.

Vote yes and you will be screwing things up for them!! Wake up pal. You've been called out left right and center here and you keep on going. Time to bow out of this thread.

[Ratherbe]

How fucking dumb are we.

More permanent concessions for a temporary gain.

There is no risk in voting this down.

There is risk in voting yes.

Only fucking pussies take the first deal. It's time to man up bitches.

Altiplano,

I'm surprised at your remarks. Although I often disagree with you I haven't seen you degrade your posts to such a level that you are calling other pilots "pussies."

Just wondering if you are referring to felines or a part of the female anatomy? Bitches?

[FL030]

So the guy from the webinar that is doing his command course next week, he is one of our negotiators? There's so much on his plate right now. Why don't we have professional negotiators? The whole system seems weird to me.

[negative_g]

We do have professional negotiating don't you know? Jalmer Johnson!

[Core]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/compli ... urn%20down.

Psych 101 and Negot 101 are the same thing....

Pay attention guys... AKA WAKE UP GUYS!

[negative_g]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/compli ... urn%20down.

Psych 101 and Negot 101 are the same thing....

Pay attention guys... AKA WAKE UP GUYS!

Off topic but how did you do that with the link that then highlighted text you selected?

[schnitzel2k3]

See this is where a strong union would've given the middle finger to the management and been like, 'see you in 2023' rather than risking this garbage with a divided pilot group.

Canadian pilots are watching to see if the AC pilot group is able to make the right choice, not for just yourselves but the industry.

Happy hunting.

[altiplano]

Altiplano…
I think I will just leave it. Sorry about your anger, I was just trying to post some helpful information despite being one of your despised instructors.

None of this really affects me but I hope the angry mob don’t screw up things for my very junior friends and those that come behind them. Time will tell.

Anyway, gotta go. Time to “ scoop primo flying on make up and be guaranteed more than line pilots? Get my choice of days off and vacation.” Adios, Bon Chance.

Your "helpful information" is incorrect assertions promoting permanent concessions. Your shill for the management vote everytime something comes up.

Since you're off to scoop that primo flying you're obviously a pseudo management insider big deal. I get it, they make you feel that way, just like they do with our ACPA Reps... special "inside" information, a look at the training plan, or the bid, "wouldn't be able to share it with you guys if I did"

Murray Strom, VP of Flt. Ops just announced to a PIT class that the plan is to have 6000 pilots on the property by end of 2024. That is approx 1800 pilots to hire in 26 months, plus all the up training of existing pilots. This was also the number we were told when shown the training plan. Take it for whatever you want.

Statements like this. Shilling. How do you know what Strom told a PIT class? Were you there? Or did Strom tell you personally what he told them?

I'll take it as BS planted statement as above.

There is absolutely no way that Air Canada hires 2000 people in 2 years. They do not have the training capability. They and you are planting these statements among the membership, the ideas of the MOAB, quick upgrades, WB left seat SOON, etc etc to push management support.

And if they do indeed need to hire 2000 people in 2 years where are they going to get people? 10% of the furloughs didn't come back because our terms are so shitty, we are losing to ULCC startups, and anyone with an American wife or status is numbered in days, several are already gone, not new hites either, 10+ year guys and the report is they are making more year 1 than as top pay WB FOs or NB CAs, not to mention the several that are well on their way to visas...

This place NEEDS to fix pay if they want to keep people coming here, we don't have to give on scope or DBM limits to get it.

1020 hours/year? That's an 85 hr DBM every month. That's hundreds of jobs. Less premium. More time at work. Burn-out... Your vacation credit won't go as far either with no low DBM months... You could have 20 days vacation in a months and still have nearly 30 hours of flying to fit in to reach DBM, 2 Atlantic crossing.

And the scope let? This just frees up Jazz to do more of our flying. This also diversifies the company back stop to us. So when the day finally comes that we stand up and put pressure on with job action, they just have more of the flying already covered. Same with this wet lease, agreeing to contract out flying as we approach collective bargaining? How stupid are we?

We have so much leverage here, and some how we're being to convinced to give. Put the pressure on! Vote no, don't take the first offer, tell them no concessions, only gains and only for training flexibility, THEY NEED THIS.

[nowind]

Time to grab your phone and call everyone you know at AC. Seriously guys, we need all the no votes we can get before tuesday. I can see this big bid coming with hundreds of open CAPT position on it. They ll make sure that we know this bid is subject to MOA ratification. They are always one step ahead. Lets send the company a message that we are united and we deserve better!