ACPA LOA?

[lenamade]

I can't believe the scope Concessions here. Unbelievable

[rudder]

Murray Strom, VP of Flt. Ops just announced to a PIT class that the plan is to have 6000 pilots on the property by end of 2024. That is approx 1800 pilots to hire in 26 months, plus all the up training of existing pilots. This was also the number we were told when shown the training plan. Take it for whatever you want.

Statements like this. Shilling. How do you know what Strom told a PIT class? Were you there? Or did Strom tell you personally what he told them?

I'll take it as BS planted statement as above.

There is absolutely no way that Air Canada hires 2000 people in 2 years. They do not have the training capability. They and you are planting these statements among the membership, the ideas of the MOAB, quick upgrades, WB left seat SOON, etc etc to push management support.

Apparently, 6000 is a 2028 forecast not 2024. I don’t doubt that MS said 6000 on Monday. Perhaps what was lost in translation is context.

Even with the MOA concessions I would still think that 600 PIT per annum would represent close to capacity, but you never know.

[airbournesailor]

Any word on how the YUL roadshow went?

[Core]

https://www.simplypsychology.org/compli ... urn%20down.

Psych 101 and Negot 101 are the same thing....

Pay attention guys... AKA WAKE UP GUYS!

Off topic but how did you do that with the link that then highlighted text you selected?

Hey, take a look at the link address itself:

Add #:~:text= to the end of the original page address. After the = type the first word you want to highlight. You can highlight one word, or an entire sentence by typing each word with a space in between or %20. (The %20 automatically populates to indicate a space).

If you want to highlight a paragraph a bit more simply, after the = type the first word(s) then a comma and %20, and the word(s) at the end of the quote, which is what I did in the link above.

Another example quoting this very page:
viewtopic.php?p=1216600#p1216600#:~:tex ... 20selected?

You have to include each %20 manually in this specific example or else the forum doesn't recognize it as a link. The forum also abbreviates the hyperlink with ... so you have to look at the actual address in the address bar to see how I did it.

Cheers!

[Dockjock]

No analysis appears to have been done as to WHY the airline doesn’t have the training capacity to implement some alleged expansion plan.
Training capacity is what, sims, instructors, classrooms?

Do they have enough simulators? No, they consistently under invest in capacity and end up sending people across the world for sim time.

Instructors? No, the conditions more so than the pay make that job undesirable or at least not desirable enough over just being a line pilot. Retirees and contractors have filled the gap but it’s not perfect. Line pilot FO’s, owing imo to the pay/housing affordability mismatch growing worse by the month in this country, no longer live within the radius that makes the drive in for multiple single day sim sessions per month worthwhile. Macro issue, but this is a big city company that doesn’t want to pay big city wages so people can live where they work. Ain’t no junior pilots living in Oakville anymore. And more to the capacity point, sending instructors across the world on multi-day and -week sim pairings requires lots of bodies.

Classrooms? No. There are not enough classrooms to conduct the amount of training courses, PIT, ITC, IRR, ART, Ground school…etc due again to chronic underinvestment in this infrastructure.

But the giant structural issue underlaying all of this, the shortage of sims, instructors classrooms, is the fleet. There are too many aircraft types. Choosing fleet types at this company is a political exercise. Or it’s a capital exercise. Or it’s…who knows. It is almost inconceivable that a competent, operations and efficiency-focussed leadership group could intentionally select Air Canada’s fleet. So here they are, they got 737’s cheap. They bought the C-series to help Bombardier. The self inflicted rouge airbus fleet is separate from mainline’s. There are two cargo planes. And and and. Efficiency just isn’t a core value and this is what has happened.

So is it on the pilots to provide flexibility to attempt to implement a training plan that still won’t work? The fact is that the fleet as-is begets too much training, the training capabilities of the airline are under developed, and the macro pay/housing issue makes instructing undesirable. Expansion is probably the last thing this company should be entertaining at this time.

[Chateau]

Any word on how the YUL roadshow went?

Usual YUL Road Show

Dan spreading company propoganda in why we can't get anything

Asked why the 600 furloughs can't get years of service and said "well then other employee groups would ask for it"

The usual lack of sympathy for people that got laid off because members have been in the past as well

If we vote no, his buds in management said they will punish us so we better say yes

Overall, the usual and what we can expect with Dan at the helm in YUL. More concessions during good times and even more during bad. Always more concessions to help the company

[schnitzel2k3]

If this is the best the union feels it can bring forward, this industry is going to fail to make any progress. Only time AC management negotiates is when there is fear in the pilot group; recession.

'We'll let you hold onto this little bit of flying, but you're going to need to give us something...'

This should be an instant no, we'll see you in 2023 with the ability to strike, and we're not coming for the house, we're coming for everything.

[Aspiredtofly]

What's the news on the vote till now? When will the vote results come out?

[a2btrail]

What's the news on the vote till now? When will the vote results come out?

The MEC has authorized the ratification vote which began on Friday, September 30 and will close
on Tuesday, October 11, 2022. The results come out after Oct 11 and before month's end to my understanding. There is no exact release date of results that has been announced.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

If this is the best the union feels it can bring forward, this industry is going to fail to make any progress. Only time AC management negotiates is when there is fear in the pilot group; recession.

'We'll let you hold onto this little bit of flying, but you're going to need to give us something...'

This should be an instant no, we'll see you in 2023 with the ability to strike, and we're not coming for the house, we're coming for everything.

You're right...no one else is talking about a recession other than AC management and the ACPA schills...you figured it out.

Instant no... ha ha....I was looking on the voting website and I couldn't find a voting option "Instant No"...and I was also looking for "Hard No"...apparently neither option is available.

Can you explain what you are doing to improve pilot working conditions? Nothing? I thought so. Why are you so interested in AC pilot working conditions? So you can ride on their coat-tails? Figured.

[TheStig]

You're right...no one else is talking about a recession other than AC management and the ACPA schills...you figured it out.

I haven’t heard AC Management talk about a recession. Massive growth is the reason they came to the table, they cannot flow enough pilots from Jazz to cover the vacancies their planned growth will create.

The only party talking about a potential upcoming recession is ACPA leadership attempting to use fear to sell this MOA.

At the very top of the pyramid of airlines are economists who determine how much flying the airline will be able to sell in the future. The commercial side of the business drives flight operations. Airlines live and die by these projections, if the airline was forecasting a recession we wouldn’t be discussing any of this.

The ACPA threat of capturing these ‘gains’ for fear of a potential recession sounds a lot like the sales pitch for the 10 year agreement, remember “Do you think we’ll be able to do better in 2017?”

[RVR6000]

You're right...no one else is talking about a recession other than AC management and the ACPA schills...you figured it out.

I haven’t heard AC Management talk about a recession. Massive growth is the reason they came to the table, they cannot flow enough pilots from Jazz to cover the vacancies their planned growth will create.

The only party talking about a potential upcoming recession is ACPA leadership attempting to use fear to sell this MOA.

At the very top of the pyramid of airlines are economists who determine how much flying the airline will be able to sell in the future. The commercial side of the business drives flight operations. Airlines live and die by these projections, if the airline was forecasting a recession we wouldn’t be discussing any of this.

The ACPA threat of capturing these ‘gains’ for fear of a potential recession sounds a lot like the sales pitch for the 10 year agreement, remember “Do you think we’ll be able to do better in 2017?”

The population of Canada is only growing, we continued to have an influx of immigrants. The current generation all live through travel and lifestyle experiences. This all equates to more growth for AC, and the people running revenue management at AC see this trend as well.

AC isn’t going to sit idle and let other carriers eat its lunch all over measly pilot wages.

[RVR6000]

You're right...no one else is talking about a recession other than AC management and the ACPA schills...you figured it out.

The ACPA threat of capturing these ‘gains’ for fear of a potential recession sounds a lot like the sales pitch for the 10 year agreement, remember “Do you think we’ll be able to do better in 2017?”

And remember during the best of times what did Calin tell us? pound sand. ‘You don’t like it here go fly for Emirates.’ While he collected his $10 million annual salary. And walked away with over $50 million in stock options.

[TheAlcalde]

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... 22+MOA.pdf

Bit of light reading on the subject from P4C

[BE02 Driver]

Honestly, what NC brings this hot pile of shit to vote in this environment? Easy NO vote and a union recall.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

[WhatThe?]

How is it that ACPA's Negot's Chair is also a realtor? Does he fly the line also...?

[bcflyer]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

Perhaps you missed the part where the government’s threat (it was just a threat) to legislate us back to work was deemed to be illegal. If our LRD had fought it we wouldn’t be where we are today.
We need hardliners. The company is in a self created jam and they need our help. They have the contract they wanted. The one THEY submitted and now they want more concessions? The offer on the table is a joke and anyone with half a brain can see that.

They have the contact they wanted. Let the high paid execs figure out how to tell the shareholders that we can’t do the flying because we tried to screw the pilots over and it backfired.

[BTD]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

None of that matters. Look at the information provided. Some by ACPA, some by P4C. Cross reference with the black line version of contract.

Who cares who was in the room. The deal is garbage.

[rudder]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

Situational awareness/context.

That was normal course bargaining (the CBA had to be renewed as bargaining had commenced). The Federal Government (Lisa Raitt) had just threatened to whack the JAZ ALPA pilots who were in negots first.

None of that dynamic exists in 2022. Perhaps in 2024, but not in 2022.

This is an MOA while a CBA remains in force. The CBA is not ‘open’ unless both parties consent to early bargaining. Even then, it is still not technically open and therefore not subject to the provisions of the Canada Labour Code nor legislative intervention.

p.s. do you really think that you would do worse than this MOA in arbitration? Regardless, that is a hypothetical 2024 scenario only.

[GeoffPilot]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

Lol...

The biggest joke going is ACPA and whoever follows them off this cliff

Looks like the MEC Chairman decided to go Thelma & Louise into the grand canyon with ACPA at the wheel. His decision


C'est la vie.

[negative_g]

p.s. do you really think that you would do worse than this MOA in arbitration? Regardless, that is a hypothetical 2024 scenario only.

Hehehe... I see what you did there.

[Montroyal]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

Ladies & Gentlemen,

ACPA's Baghdad Bob is back!

[negative_g]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

I don't think anyone has done any messenger attacking or "ad hominem arguments" that I've seen. In fact most people are pretty happy to have at least ONE document breaking down parts of the MOA. So far all we've gotten from ACPA is videos and JJ , GR and the scope chair trying to sell the deal. If ACPA really wanted to not do a "sell job" they would have provided a PRO/CON fact sheet but they didn't. The staff were too busy whipping the stats on pay charts to make em look better than they are.

[lenaumade]

So who exactly are P4C? Were they in the room for the negotiations? Who are their experts that are reviewing the documents and writing up their criticism?

Exactly...a bunch of pilots with Tier 3 union experience and they know all the answers..

Criticise them? And guess what happens, a bunch of ad hominem arguments attacking the messenger, calling them stupid, sellouts etc...

Maybe a history lesson is needed for the P$C supporters..

Back in 2011/2012 the union agreed to a tentative CA.... there was outrage....a group of angry pilots organized thru social media and created their own criticism of the agreement...the vote failed....the unionistas were all thrown out of their jobs...and new hardline MEC and negots committee was elected/appointed.....there was a strike vote...and low and behold, the government passed legislation to prevent a strike....the issues were sent to Final Offer Settlement. Our hardline NC and MEC decided they knew better so their submission was filled with illegal and untenable terms...and the arbitrator selected the company's submission...it was worse than their original offer....

the hardliners either resigned or were replaced....

and so here we are...several P4C members are part of the MEC, the MEC chairman is P4C....

what a joke they are, they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery.

I don't think anyone has done any messenger attacking or "ad hominem arguments" that I've seen. In fact most people are pretty happy to have at least ONE document breaking down parts of the MOA. So far all we've gotten from ACPA is videos and JJ , GR and the scope chair trying to sell the deal. If ACPA really wanted to not do a "sell job" they would have provided a PRO/CON fact sheet but they didn't. The staff were too busy whipping the stats on pay charts to make em look better than they are.

come on man, we re bitching about this contract since the last 3 days...Pretty sure we knows the PRO's and CON's without this document. But it is appreciated to have it.

By the way, they also exploit some fear in this document, as the ACPA would do. For example, we know there is a very slim chance (pratically none) that LOU74 will come back. The flat pay is on it but also the social bidding, the overtime at 2.5 and no reserve...No way it s coming back. But still, they emphasis a lot on that.