ACPA LOA?

[Stu Pidasso]

I don't have a dog in this fight but must say this MOA got a hard "NO" from me. I have seen ACPA push lousy deals but this one ranks right up there. The MEC and Negotiations Chairs are both great guys - but way over their heads.

After 2+ years of lay off with zero CEWS, our junior Pilots should be happy that a Jazz Pilot can stay in the left seat while accruing Mainline Seniority.

While they continue to slug it out for less pay than the rampie loading the bags and the FA delivering your coffee.

Flight Ops Management should be embarrassed, two years of working from home has made them even more out of touch.

Here's hoping for a 90% NO VOTE.

[schnitzel2k3]

If this is the best the union feels it can bring forward, this industry is going to fail to make any progress. Only time AC management negotiates is when there is fear in the pilot group; recession.

'We'll let you hold onto this little bit of flying, but you're going to need to give us something...'

This should be an instant no, we'll see you in 2023 with the ability to strike, and we're not coming for the house, we're coming for everything.

You're right...no one else is talking about a recession other than AC management and the ACPA schills...you figured it out.

Instant no... ha ha....I was looking on the voting website and I couldn't find a voting option "Instant No"...and I was also looking for "Hard No"...apparently neither option is available.

Can you explain what you are doing to improve pilot working conditions? Nothing? I thought so. Why are you so interested in AC pilot working conditions? So you can ride on their coat-tails? Figured.

You didn't actually tag me Kaffe so I had no idea I had to validate my opinion.

The Canadian aviation industry has an interest in ANY ACPA / AC pilot WAWCON vote, as Air Canada's working and starting pay conditions sadly set the ceiling for the rest of the industry. That is a fact. ACPA pretends like it's everyone else, but it's100% on ACPA's past failures to manage the arbitrations and AC management.

I also have colleagues starting there shortly, and while I'm excited for their excitement, I feel supporting the current contract is a poor choice and the best thing we could do as an industry is say no.

I, like the minority that occasionally post, chose not to accept the offer from AC about 7 years ago, for family reasons, and have found my way through the industry on a different path. I've always pushed hard and left my seats significantly better than I found them for the next pilot.

Y'all can do much much better. Just strike hard at the right time.

[altiplano]

I don't have a dog in this fight but must say this MOA got a hard "NO" from me. I have seen ACPA push lousy deals but this one ranks right up there. The MEC and Negotiations Chairs are both great guys - but way over their heads.

After 2+ years of lay off with zero CEWS, our junior Pilots should be happy that a Jazz Pilot can stay in the left seat while accruing Mainline Seniority.

While they continue to slug it out for less pay than the rampie loading the bags and the FA delivering your coffee.

Flight Ops Management should be embarrassed, two years of working from home has made them even more out of touch.

Here's hoping for a 90% NO VOTE.

And the new 1st year pay is still less than Flair and Cargojet starting pay.

And if they decide to go back to Rouge LCC LOU terms and conditions, which they can, the 4 year flat pay is still there!

I think this vote is definitely going to be a no. The only question now is how strong the No majority is. 90% would be perfect.

The harder it fails, the more solidarity we show, the better position we will be in going back to the table. Like a job action vote, you don't want a 51% strike vote, it shows that your solidarity is weak and diminishes your leverage.

Anyone waiting to vote or undecided, put your vote on the winning No side and let's show the company we all expect far better. Give our guys a strong position going back to the table.

[Aspiredtofly]

I don't have a dog in this fight but must say this MOA got a hard "NO" from me. I have seen ACPA push lousy deals but this one ranks right up there. The MEC and Negotiations Chairs are both great guys - but way over their heads.

After 2+ years of lay off with zero CEWS, our junior Pilots should be happy that a Jazz Pilot can stay in the left seat while accruing Mainline Seniority.

While they continue to slug it out for less pay than the rampie loading the bags and the FA delivering your coffee.

Flight Ops Management should be embarrassed, two years of working from home has made them even more out of touch.

Here's hoping for a 90% NO VOTE.

And the new 1st year pay is still less than Flair and Cargojet starting pay.

And if they decide to go back to Rouge LCC LOU terms and conditions, which they can, the 4 year flat pay is still there!

I think this vote is definitely going to be a no. The only question now is how strong the No majority is. 90% would be perfect.

The harder it fails, the more solidarity we show, the better position we will be in going back to the table. Like a job action vote, you don't want a 51% strike vote, it shows that your solidarity is weak and diminishes your leverage.

Anyone waiting to vote or undecided, put your vote on the winning No side and let's show the company we all expect far better. Give our guys a strong position going back to the table.

Fingers crossed. Good luck guys

[TFTMB heavy]

So you guys are all convinced AC will be back at the table to offer more if their MOA gets voted down?

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

So you guys are all convinced AC will be back at the table to offer more if their MOA gets voted down?

The MEC/NC claims we have all this power and control so if this deal is as important as the MEC says it is, and also important enough to get managers soliciting Yes votes in Flight planning, then they will be back. If they don’t come back then clearly it wasn’t that big of a deal for the company and nothing short of a huge attempt at minimizing gains or making a concession grab by the corp. Returning to the table will be up to the BOD at AC if it is in the interest of share holder value.

-Jimmy

[schnitzel2k3]

So you guys are all convinced AC will be back at the table to offer more if their MOA gets voted down?

100% - just need solidarity within the flight group to display unity. Once that happens they will be required to take your group seriously.

Until that point, they will continue to divide and conquer.

[negative_g]

So you guys are all convinced AC will be back at the table to offer more if their MOA gets voted down?

Nothing is ever guaranteed. But we need to remember, the middle managers answer to the executive who answer to the board. And the board answers to the shareholders. If AC can't fly their schedule next summer, that's a huge problem. They aren't going to go dial back flying when a little bit more money can fix the problem. Sure there is a risk they don't come back, but given there's no chance of arbitration and we are in the driver's seat here, it's a risk I'm willing to take. I say this as a pilot nearing year 3 pay soon and would see a nice juicy raise.

[JHR]

You guys are gonna screw this up

[Chips&Pops]

You guys are gonna screw this up

What are u gonna do bout it bud?

[JHR]

Nothing sir

[altiplano]

So you guys are all convinced AC will be back at the table to offer more if their MOA gets voted down?

This is important to AC's recovery. They will come back to the table.

This could be fine with a few tweaks.

No scope or DBM 1020 let. That's trash. Scope and schedule are priorities for the membership.

Training flexibility let until the end of 2024 in return for flat pay fixed, and across the board 6%, We will also allow a 2 year seniority reserved deferral to CPA flow pilots but without YOS unless they are going to offer YOS to AC furloughs and also only with concurrence with the Jazz MEC.

100% cargo pay in return for 12 month cargo wet lease with an agreement on block hour cap.

That's the deal... AC gets everything it needs to manage its problems, and AC Pilots solve a couple of their problems.

If the corp doesn't come back and do a deal though, get some good will going into the 2023 contract year, which could be full open contract, they are serving up the solidarity the Pilots need. I haven't seen this level of solidarity and engagement since 2012. This is a good warm up for the membership for the imminent big table bargaining. Maybe we should add in some work to rule, no VO to go with it.

[yowflyer23]

Pilots account for roughly 5-10% of variable costs. Adding overhead costs makes that less than 10% overall. Any savings the company can get from pilots is a cherry on top in relation to other potential cost saving areas. AC needs your cooperation for the planned growth next summer. Don’t think there will ever be a better time to negotiate in the short term. Think about the future threats.. possible recession, ULCC’s growing and increasing yield pressure/overcapacity, Westjet receiving the CASM monster 737-10, 321 XLR expansion (which I see being a future “we need to take a pay cut to better compete” situation), etc etc.

The leverage you have right now is very temporary. The time is now to get some gains. As the saying goes in management… “don’t let a good crisis go to waste”.

[FatPilot]

Its nothing double and triple time draft couldn't fix... we don't need this moa.

[Jimmy_Hoffa]

Pilots account for roughly 5-10% of variable costs. Adding overhead costs makes that less than 10% overall. Any savings the company can get from pilots is a cherry on top in relation to other potential cost saving areas. AC needs your cooperation for the planned growth next summer. Don’t think there will ever be a better time to negotiate in the short term. Think about the future threats.. possible recession, ULCC’s growing and increasing yield pressure/overcapacity, Westjet receiving the CASM monster 737-10, 321 XLR expansion (which I see being a future “we need to take a pay cut to better compete” situation), etc etc.

The leverage you have right now is very temporary. The time is now to get some gains. As the saying goes in management… “don’t let a good crisis go to waste”.

AC pilot payroll accounts for 4% of total operating costs yet drives 90% of the revenue. If planes don’t move AC doesn’t get paid. For all of the above reasons, this deal is more important to Managment. So maybe it’s time the membership didn’t let a good crisis go to waste.
More and more this deal is looking less about training flexability and more about the inability to flow as many Jazz pilots as promised.

-Jimmy

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Thinking airplanes only need pilots to move is the foolish type of ideology most of us have. Unfortunately, getting an airplane airborne takes a plethora of processes and human capital to execute their tasks for it to happen.

[Aspiredtofly]

What happened to the votes. Is it a yes or no?

[Protonpilot]

I haven't seen this level of solidarity and engagement since 2012. This is a good warm up for the membership for the imminent big table bargaining.

Yes!!! I remember that, it was something. 95% participation rate in the strike vote. 95% in favour of a strike. A unified group and a hard nosed bargaining team.

How did that work out for us...

We're still licking our wounds from the FOS brought to us by the NC2.

The P4C group taking the helm now is reading from the same playbook as the NC2 from 2012. Seeing huge leverage around every corner where there is very little (open border to the US ), creating member expectations that a 30% upfront raise is coming down the pipe.

P4C is a fast track to arbitration, because there isn't going to be any offer coming across the table from the Company with a 30% raise. They've seen how quickly you go from hero to zero on Snapchat or Slack when you don't deliver.

So, predictably, they'll throw up their arms and blame the man. Just like in 2012.

Hopefully it's a traditional arbitration and not FOS.

[cdnavater]

I haven't seen this level of solidarity and engagement since 2012. This is a good warm up for the membership for the imminent big table bargaining.

Yes!!! I remember that, it was something. 95% participation rate in the strike vote. 95% in favour of a strike. A unified group and a hard nosed bargaining team.

How did that work out for us...

We're still licking our wounds from the FOS brought to us by the NC2.

The P4C group taking the helm now is reading from the same playbook as the NC2 from 2012. Seeing huge leverage around every corner where there is very little (open border to the US ), creating member expectations that a 30% upfront raise is coming down the pipe.

P4C is a fast track to arbitration, because there isn't going to be any offer coming across the table from the Company with a 30% raise. They've seen how quickly you go from hero to zero on Snapchat or Slack when you don't deliver.

So, predictably, they'll throw up their arms and blame the man. Just like in 2012.

Hopefully it's a traditional arbitration and not FOS.

It has been mentioned many times!
There will not be any arbitration imposed, this is not bargaining as the contract is currently in force. Air Canada came to the group with an ask, offered peanuts in exchange and here you are, beaten dog syndrome, thinking if you turn this down you will be forced a shit sandwich. Not the case, worst case scenario, you keep flying under the current contract.

[altiplano]

I haven't seen this level of solidarity and engagement since 2012. This is a good warm up for the membership for the imminent big table bargaining.

Yes!!! I remember that, it was something. 95% participation rate in the strike vote. 95% in favour of a strike. A unified group and a hard nosed bargaining team.

How did that work out for us...

We're still licking our wounds from the FOS brought to us by the NC2.

The P4C group taking the helm now is reading from the same playbook as the NC2 from 2012. Seeing huge leverage around every corner where there is very little (open border to the US ), creating member expectations that a 30% upfront raise is coming down the pipe.

P4C is a fast track to arbitration, because there isn't going to be any offer coming across the table from the Company with a 30% raise. They've seen how quickly you go from hero to zero on Snapchat or Slack when you don't deliver.

So, predictably, they'll throw up their arms and blame the man. Just like in 2012.

Hopefully it's a traditional arbitration and not FOS.

"Protonpilot" - joined avcanada a month ago, 7 posts... another multiple user name company mouthpiece.

FOS was illegal, ACPA LRD were fools to stop the supreme court challenge slam dunk, and pro-company KV (one of the 27) that had worked his way back in to bring us the 2014 deal killed all hope to this day.

There is no way that FOS ever happens again.
The industry landscape is totally different.
Airline pilots around the world make double our salary.
There are more airlines in this country.
The company was in record profits most recently and will return so.
The pension is ridiculously over funded.

The company is going to kick and scream if this round of concessions fails, but they need a deal and will return to the table. There is no risk or rush here, as stated, there will be no forced arbitration or similar with a rejection here, we hold the cards. They have problems that require our help, Jazz flow, OTS staffing, training. They don't even have enough pilots to fly a full schedule this spring, 4 months from now let alone next summer when 996 hr max DBM resets as WBs have been going max out since June, another 8
85 hr month and they will be restricted sub-80 hr DBMs . Wait for a good deal.

But looking further, as I said, this is a warm up for this group to get ready for the big table, expect better, get educated, prepare. This solidarity can be laddered into gains when it really counts. Just stopping VO will shut down this airline.

P4C isn't a group as much as it is a swell within those of us that require better of our association, our employer, and ourselves. I suggest you get onboard.

It starts with a "NO" vote here, this deal is failing, the only question is by how much. If you're on the fence, if you want better, show solidarity and send this back with force!

[Fanblade]

Why is there so many pilots at AC that took the TA1/FOS experience as: We can not succeed at normal bargaining……EVER?

There is no doubt a lot of mistakes went into that past experience. Many mistakes.

But really? We can not succeed at bargaining?

Other unions do it all the time.

[Transition9er2]

To everyone worried about “Vote NO”… I would love to get your thoughts and opinions.

I sat in on the YYZ roadshow and heard the table say a few times (mainly JJ) that if we vote this down there’s a chance the company will use the money allocated to this MOA to find alternatives to still accomplish their commercial plans for 2023.

What I wanna know is “how” that’s even remotely possible from the company’s standpoint. WJ just announced fleet expansion, Flair just announced fleet expansion, Porter is currently growing their fleet, Lynx is announcing aggressive route growth. Literally EVERY AIRLINE in Canada is planning rapid expansion right now and STARVING to steal market share from AC, yet AC believes they have the ability to “teach the pilots a lesson” if we vote this down???

What options do AC have that’ll accomplish their planned flying next year that is less painful to them than coming back to the table to work with us??

Would they get an American carrier to do the flying? If they did… would that not be the very definition and direct result there is in fact a pilot shortage?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

[Aspiredtofly]

Any updates on the vote result?

[PostmasterGeneral]

To everyone worried about “Vote NO”… I would love to get your thoughts and opinions.

I sat in on the YYZ roadshow and heard the table say a few times (mainly JJ) that if we vote this down there’s a chance the company will use the money allocated to this MOA to find alternatives to still accomplish their commercial plans for 2023.

What I wanna know is “how” that’s even remotely possible from the company’s standpoint. WJ just announced fleet expansion, Flair just announced fleet expansion, Porter is currently growing their fleet, Lynx is announcing aggressive route growth. Literally EVERY AIRLINE in Canada is planning rapid expansion right now and STARVING to steal market share from AC, yet AC believes they have the ability to “teach the pilots a lesson” if we vote this down???

What options do AC have that’ll accomplish their planned flying next year that is less painful to them than coming back to the table to work with us??

Would they get an American carrier to do the flying? If they did… would that not be the very definition and direct result there is in fact a pilot shortage?

Interested to hear your thoughts.

That's exactly it. They can't do it without us. JJ is a moron, a corporate shill who needs to get the boot in my opinion.

It's nothing more than the typical doom and gloom scare tactic. Let's call their bluff this time.

[rudder]

Any updates on the vote result?

“The MEC has authorized the ratification vote to begin on Friday, September 30 and close on Tuesday, October 11, 2022.”