Cadets

[Right Seat Captain]

I have to add that there is a good reason the CIC are paid. They may not be full members of the armed forces, however running an Air Cadet Squadron is not an easy job. It's far more difficult and time consuming to organize the Squadron activities than to coach minor league hockey. Paying members of the CIC is a way of getting the better people out there, and motivation to go on training courses such as BOQ. I think if you did not pay CIC members, the Air Cadet Organization would be in shambles today.

[mellow_pilot]

Sorry, I guess I was a bit broad there, I mean't Officers and NCMs in the same chain of command...

Commence feather de-ruffling.

[FlyByWire]

Thanks right seat for explaining the pay thing.

As was demonstrated by the replies, yes, on occasion, a CIC officer may get a little big for his/her britches, but this is not the general feeling amongst the CIC. It's is also an attitude they try and nip in the bud on BOQ.

One poster said he though my first post sounded pompous. I'm sorry if you read it that way, but being in the CIC and working with cadets something I am very passionate about. Doing what we do, we get to watch the cadets come in as kids and leave as young men and women. Knowing that we managed to help in even a small way is an extremely rewarding feeling.

For anyone looking at the CIC from the eyes of their previous cadet experience, please understand that what you see your officers doing while you are a cadet is only a fraction of the total work required to run a unit. I thought that being a CIC officer was going to be an easy, once a week thing. This attitude was based on what I knew from my cadet days. When you actually become involved in the staff side of things, it quickly becomes appaarent that the one night a week thing is a line fed to you by the recruiting people!

[Isis]

Anyone know what you are saluting?

You are not saluting the individual, the job he/she does, or the cap badge he/she wears. You are saluting the Queen's commision they hold as a member of our Armed Forces.

The commision scroll handed to a member of the infantry, or to a member of the CIC is EXACTLY the same. There is no title on the scroll.

Should you walk past an officer on a base, what is your reaction? Do you stop them, ask them their job posting, and then salute providing what you heard suits you? I don't think so!

(I'm sorry, but the assumption that a CIC officer would walk 'on the line' and order troops around is absolutely absurd)

As for the pay argument... CIC officers are full fledged members of the Canadian Armed Forces. Why shouldn't they be paid as such.

I do not want to belittle scout leaders, or minor league coaches. Any organisation that reaches out to our youth is A-OK in my books. I won't tolerate a lack of respect amongst these groups. It just doesn't make sense. You're on the same side.

Now... just as you can show me a pompous CIC officer/cadet, I'll show you 2 pompous civilian pilots. You'll find arogant, stuck up individuals in all walks of life. So, take the person for who they are - not what they did as a teenager.

I've had my run-in with those 'wonderful' cadets who think they are god's gift to aviation. They can land a glider/c-172 and they learned it all in 6 weeks. Good for you! Now, welcome to the real world. It doesn't take them long to get knocked off their feet - especially if their confidence has no root.

And here endeth the lesson

- Isis

[monkeyspankmasterflex]

CIC officers are full fledged members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Ah, not so much. Military members relinguish certain basic rights afforded to Canadians, do you? Can you be ordered to go to war? Can you be forced to deploy for 6 months at a time? Can you be transferred somewhere you do not want to live for the next 3-4 years? How does your basic training compare with "full-fledged" members? If your commission is the same are you able to transfer to the reserves or reg force with out doing their standard training?

Cadets are not military, cadets are a government funded version of boy scouts and girl guides. That doesn't make them bad, but I think provides a more down to earth perspective.

[Isis]

First of all, I am not a member of the CIC. So please stop directing your comments to me as if I am one.

Second of all, CIC is a component of the Sub-reserve - so yes, they are members of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Don't forget that we all could be called to war should the government pass the appropriate legislature - members of the armed forces volunteer to be first, to defend the nation and protect against that possibility.

Try not to exagerate or get carried away with your arguments.

You are correct, cadets is a government funded youth organisation. I am NOT claiming Cadets to be a military unit. The CIC, however, is.

In terms of transfering? Yes, as a member of CIC you can transfer to either reserve or regular service - just as you can transfer into the CIC.
Of course you'll have to be re-trained. You'll be trained for the NEW job you've requested!

All that being said, I do realise the point you are trying to make and I agree with you! There really is no reason for a CIC officer to feel or portray that he is superior to say a foot soldier in the infantry. However, technically, on paper, that is the case - due to the commision. I am simply trying to clarify some of the termonology that is being used.

There is the technical aspects of the argument - and your opinion, sir. You may FEEL that a CIC officer is of a lower species, but that is not the case. He holds the same commision as any other officer in the regular or reserve Armed Forces.

- Isis

[V1 Rotate]

Currently a new training program is being developed for the CIC which will bring it more inline wiht the Primary Reserves and Regular Force. The CIC is one of many specific occupations within the CF; it is specialised. You would no more ask a sailor to fly an airplane or an artilleryman to operate a ship than aks a CIC officer to do something they are not familliar with.

[w squared]

First...Call it CIC, CIL, whatever you want. We still know that we're talking about the comissioned instructors for cadets.

Second...I would submit that a retired officer who has served in either the Reg force or the PRes has far more in the way of real leadership experience than most CIC officers that haven't done so. The best CIC officers that I have encountered were all ex-Reg force.

While doing Phase II of my Infantry Officer's Basic course at CTC in Gagetown, one of the individuals on the course was an ex-CIC Lieutenant who had joined the reserve unit that his corps was attached to. This individual (note my choice of that word) was a fully trained CIC officer...he had completed their courses, and had spent a couple of years instructing at their corps. After all that great "leadership" experience, I would still rather have had a brand-new fresh-from-civvie-street candidate sharing my fire trench with me.

His "experience" led him to believe that his being at the battleschool was a formality - that he just had to "get his ticket punched". He was disabused of those notions quite quickly. He didn't succeed in the course, and was quietly shunted off into an administrative job once he got back to his unit. It was suggested to him that he should go back to the CIC instead of attempting the course again.

I know that not all CIC officers are like that, as I've met some good ones in the past. However, the common thread amongst all those good CIC officers is that they had either Reg force or PRes experience.

I fundamentally understand that when saluting an officer, you are saluting the comission that they hold...however...respect is something that must be earned. When I happened to see a CIC officer that (like many) did discredit to the uniform of the CF by his standard of dress and deportment, I can assure you that even if he did outrank me, it was very seldom that a salute was forthcoming. If such an officer ever decided to "throw his weight around" with real soldiers (which happened from time to time) and I or another officer (or NCO) was present, that individual ended up listening to a very one-sided conversation.

Officers of the Reg Force and PRes have earned their comissions. Many PRes officers train as part of the RESO program, which means that they take the same courses, and are held to the same standard as Reg Force officers. Many officers in the Reg Force started out in the PRes, and subsequently made the shift (especially infantry officers) All officers in the PRes and Reg Force face real leadership tests both during training courses and while serving with their units. I doubt very much that going to CIC "learn to be saluted" camp can provide even a fraction of the real leadership experience that Reg Force and PRes officers get.

As far as arrogant ex-cadets go, take note that I did not make a blanket statement. When I was a private, the #2 candidate on my infantry course had been the RSM of his cadet corps. He was an thoroughly excellent soldier. However, in my experience, that's been the exception rather than the rule.

[Isis]

I understand your concerns, w squared. You do raise valid points. How can you be expected to treat a CIC officer with the same respect as a PRes/Reg officer if you know them to be cut from a different cloth?

It doesn't make sense.

As an ex-cadet, I felt the same when taking my QL2 and QL3 for the artillery reserve. How clouded I was as a cadet to have felt so 'superior'. My NCOs were 10 times the leaders any of my senior cadets or officers were. Again, I will not dispute that point.

However, let's put this into perspective. What is a CIC officer trained to do? Lead youth. Lead the youth in a pursuit of improved citizenship. What is an infantry officer trained to do? Lead soldiers. Lead them in combat/peace keeping scenerios

Kinda comparing apples and oranges, aren't ya?! Of course any PRes/Reg ex-officer will have ten times the leadership experience.

You will find these types of individuals whom you've had bad experiences with, in all walks of life. Including aviation. All any ex-cadet, aviation college grad, whathave you asks, is that they be judged as an individual.

At the end of the day, everyone is on the same team. Why the harsh feelings/resentment? Who's it hurting to salute an officer - any officer?

- Isis

[w squared]

Who's it hurting to salute an officer? If the person recieving the salute isn't worthy of it, you're cheapening the meaning inherent in the salute. If we say that every holder of a CPL is an "expert pilot", doesn't that lower the standard necessary to be an "expert pilot"?

I'm not suggesting that we hold CIC officers to the same standard that active officers are held to - that's patently unrealistic, and there is no need for a CIC officer to obtain and maintain the technical knowledge and expertise required by an active officer. What I am saying is that the current "acceptable" standard for CIC officers is too low.

One of the fundamental tenents of effective leadership is that you must lead by example. What kind of leadership is being provided by individuals who set a poor example?

The most cogent argument that I've seen here in favour of CIC officers is that they're training cadets, who are potential future soldiers. I'm all for providing guidance and development for cadets. The problem I see is that we're not doing a good enough job in selecting and training those who guide and develop our future soldiers (and sailors and airmen).

The current training and selection may be sufficent to teach some rudimentary bushcraft/theory of flight/knots/etc. However, how much success will a CIC officer that's never served in a military unit have in understanding the way that those skills will be applied? How can they effectively teach those skills with an eye to applying them in a military environment if they've never served in a military environment? Please don't try to tell me that CIC training courses and summer cadet camps qualify as a "military environment" - I've seen first-hand the product of that theory.