Are Pilot wages actually that low?

[McKinley]

Pilot WAWCON has been coming up lots lately.

I got into a debate with a friend who works as a paramedic in Canada.

The topic of our respective wages came up- They top out at 98,000 ( roughly)

I compared their top wage to Canadian regional captain wages topping out at around 165,000.

The individuals opinion was that the fact that we complain about our pay was laughable bordering on narcissistic .. nevermind American pilot salaries. They referred to US pay scales as “ bloated” ( along with our pay scales)..

I also discussed FO salaries in Canada and these wages were also deemed acceptable/ overly high at both the regional and mainline levels. They did a acknowledge that 40,000 is not that viable but commensurate with experience.

I also brought up mainline FO wages .. these were also commensurate with experience as well. Mainline WB Captain wages were deemed bloated and excessive.


Obviously my opinion is different …


Here’s why:

-time it takes to climb to the top wage brackets
-long tenures as rampies / dockhands
-Challenging ( at best) entry level jobs in the bush etc
-time away from home
-comparatively low hourly wage when airport time / time away from home is factored in.
-studies showing high altitude flying can lead to cancer
-degree of responsibility..
-consequences of a screw up at far higher and have a potential loss of life that could be massive.
-education cost.
-job security issues



Here’s the supporting arguments for why our wages could be deemed as overly high.

-both require recurrent training
-both require technical skills
-both careers can lead of loss of life If a mistake is made
-both work long hours
-both may live in a major center ( high cost of living)
-education cost
-non- adherence to policies and procedures can lead to loss of life.
-both are trades and don’t require college education.


What your opinion? Are we being “entitled babies” and do we need a reality check?

My opinion is that both careers are under paid.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Simple answer. Yes. Elaborated answer: With years of experience, $100k investment in studies, instability both of employment and employer behaviour, all lands you at pay slightly below a city bus driver. Still Yes.

[Ifly]

The Captain of a WB aircraft doing an overseas flight is legally responsible for ~300+ lives, a $200 million asset as well as any cargo on board. They are responsible for managing a crew of 14 to 16 employees on the far side of the planet. If the pilots screw up in a way that results in a hull loss, it can mean the end of a company.

The Captain of a WB should be paid commensurate with that responsibility, with the pilots that work under him or her paid a ratio of that wage.

How much does the CEO of a company worth $200 million make? How do you put a value on 300+ lives?

[daedalusx]

Gee, it can take a decade of hard work, 100,000$ in loans to earn the experience to finally be able to get a left seat position at Jazz and then you earn what ? 70k-80k on your first year of reserve. On every leg, you’re still in charge of 80 lives and millions of dollars in assets working out of airports airports that are much more technical that your usual ILS to ILS jet.

By comparison, I was making double that during Covid working in tech, with no experience, no money spent to learn the trade, no degrees and 3 months of training on the job and absolutely no real responsibilities whatsoever.

When I was a left seater at Jazz, how much do you think I was paid for a YVR YCD turn ? 15 min air time, less if the 08s were in use. So figure a 30min block time, 70$ paid per block hour, 1 hour total for a standard turn. That means for 100+ SOBs paying most likely more than 100$ per leg I was getting paid less than 1$ per pax for the flight. Same shit for YYC - YEG in winter.

Yes the wages in Canada both for regional and mainline flying are too low. How long does it take to break 100k per year at WJ mainline as an FO without OT or ESOP ? 5 years ?

[WellThatAgedWell]

When I went into business I learned to stop thinking about it as units of time and more so what it is worth on the other end to the person I sell a product or service. Sometimes I would think of what something should be worth, then I multiply that number by 10 and email off my proposal.

It didn’t matter if a job takes an hour to do, if what I provided was worth thousands of dollars then that was what it was worth on the other end. When I’m on the paying end of a transaction I advocate to pay less, and when I’m on the paid end of the transaction I advocate for more pay.

So are pilot wages low? That’s up to the customer and the pilot to decide. If pilots won’t fight for more pay, they might just get paid less. I would say pilots have more leverage for pay gains than paramedics, but this is only because I think I could argue a case for pilots to be paid more, and not so much for paramedics.

[‘Bob’]

The Captain of a WB aircraft doing an overseas flight is legally responsible for ~300+ lives, a $200 million asset as well as any cargo on board. They are responsible for managing a crew of 14 to 16 employees on the far side of the planet. If the pilots screw up in a way that results in a hull loss, it can mean the end of a company.

The Captain of a WB should be paid commensurate with that responsibility, with the pilots that work under him or her paid a ratio of that wage.

How much does the CEO of a company worth $200 million make? How do you put a value on 300+ lives?

I always find the lives argument interesting.

First. Our society overwhelmingly values property over lives. Look at the disparity between paramedics and police or especially fire departments and you’ll see it as plain as day.

Second, a long haul truck driver holds more lives in their hands on a daily basis than a WB captain. Location is irrelevant and perhaps favours the truck driver for difficultly on a lonely highway rather than a flight crew at a well-serviced airport. Also, unlike the truck driver who will likely survive a collision, the WB captain acts in the interest of self-preservation: he’s already motivated to perform.

Maybe paying pilots more correlates with safety? But I doubt it. Canadian planes aren’t exactly falling out of the sky. I bet that Air France crew was well paid before they wound up at the bottom of the Atlantic.

[rookiepilot]

Simple answer. Yes. Elaborated answer: With years of experience, $100k investment in studies, instability both of employment and employer behaviour, all lands you at pay slightly below a city bus driver. Still Yes.

The city bus driver is responsible for the safety of countless lives a year. As are train engineers, (freight and passenger) ER nurses, water treatment employees, nuclear power plant employees, crane operators…..the list is endless.

[digits_]

To me, pilots are paid to deal with the crappy quality of life. Away from home, timezones, night flights, pressure not to lose your job every X months, move across the country to upgrade or to find a new job. Things like that.

I also think paramedics, especially flight medics, should make more.

[digits_]

By comparison, I was making double that during Covid working in tech, with no experience, no money spent to learn the trade, no degrees and 3 months of training on the job and absolutely no real responsibilities whatsoever.

I am really curious to know what tech job pays 140k-160k to someone without experience?

[goldeneagle]

I am really curious to know what tech job pays 140k-160k to someone without experience?

Those only exist in the figments of some imagination.

[goldeneagle]

The Captain of a WB aircraft doing an overseas flight is legally responsible for ~300+ lives, a $200 million asset as well as any cargo on board. They are responsible for managing a crew of 14 to 16 employees on the far side of the planet. If the pilots screw up in a way that results in a hull loss, it can mean the end of a company.

If the captain of that A/C screws up and writes off the airplane, injuring a bunch of the pax in the process, they will immediately go hide behind a union skirt and thats when you find out just how much responsibility they actually carry. They will not end up sued for damages, even if the passengers die. They wont have to pay for any of the damage to the airplane, and likely wont even lose their job over it.

How many large aircraft have been written off in Halifax over the years ? How many of the folks driving those airplanes into the scene of the accident were held responsible for it ? How many of them are still flying for the same airline ?

[canadian_aviator_4]

Simple answer. Yes. Elaborated answer: With years of experience, $100k investment in studies, instability both of employment and employer behaviour, all lands you at pay slightly below a city bus driver. Still Yes.

The city bus driver is responsible for the safety of countless lives a year. As are train engineers, (freight and passenger) ER nurses, water treatment employees, nuclear power plant employees, crane operators…..the list is endless.

Compared to a bus driver and crane operator our training is much more specialized and costly. So either you are a troll, which good on you, or you are satisfied with current pilot pay disparities between Canada and the majority of countries on earth when looking at pay vs cost of living. For that, I’m glad you are but don’t hold the rest of us back.

[daedalusx]

I am really curious to know what tech job pays 140k-160k to someone without experience?

Those only exist in the figments of some imagination.

You’d be shocked how much money you can make in tech if you know what you’re doing and are not a total retard. Plenty of niches where the money is. Actually if I ever go back to flying I will have to take a huge pay cut.
Some examples, SQL, SharePoint, network security, pen-tests consultants, etc.

[daedalusx]

Let’s not forget the YYC link drivers making more than Jazz and Encore FOs to drive around a glorified golf cart.

But keep shitting on your own profession and keep wondering why Canadian pilots are the worst paid of the Western world.

[digits_]

I am really curious to know what tech job pays 140k-160k to someone without experience?

Those only exist in the figments of some imagination.

You’d be shocked how much money you can make in tech if you know what you’re doing and are not a total retard. Plenty of niches where the money is. Actually if I ever go back to flying I will have to take a huge pay cut.
Some examples, SQL, SharePoint, network security, pen-tests consultants, etc.

I know you can. But I haven't seen a single job ad offering more than 70k for an entry level position. I am happy to be proven wrong though if you're willing to share this opportunity!

[rookiepilot]

Simple answer. Yes. Elaborated answer: With years of experience, $100k investment in studies, instability both of employment and employer behaviour, all lands you at pay slightly below a city bus driver. Still Yes.

The city bus driver is responsible for the safety of countless lives a year. As are train engineers, (freight and passenger) ER nurses, water treatment employees, nuclear power plant employees, crane operators…..the list is endless.

Compared to a bus driver and crane operator our training is much more specialized and costly. So either you are a troll, which good on you, or you are satisfied with current pilot pay disparities between Canada and the majority of countries on earth when looking at pay vs cost of living. For that, I’m glad you are but don’t hold the rest of us back.

Ah.

So this is a pro-union, woe is me site, complaining department, not an analysis and discussion site.

And what good is all this bleating here doing for your situation ?

The whining from my chair, gets real old.

Life is full of choices. Grow up and make some. Organize a strike or protest, or move on to something else or somewhere else. Overseas flying.

[tbaylx]

Besides pay there are very few jobs where you get as much time off as a pilot either.

[altiplano]

Besides pay there are very few jobs where you get as much time off as a pilot either.

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

[Partytime226]

Those only exist in the figments of some imagination.

You’d be shocked how much money you can make in tech if you know what you’re doing and are not a total retard. Plenty of niches where the money is. Actually if I ever go back to flying I will have to take a huge pay cut.
Some examples, SQL, SharePoint, network security, pen-tests consultants, etc.

I know you can. But I haven't seen a single job ad offering more than 70k for an entry level position. I am happy to be proven wrong though if you're willing to share this opportunity!

I can confirm that it does exist. I am currently in a entry level IT position making over 70k working from home Mon to Fri. Working as a System Admin. I did free IT courses part-time for a few months and landed this job. All my previous work experience for the last 15 years has been in aviation but still manage to break into the industry.

The Secret: opportunities like this doesn’t fall on people’s lap by sitting at home doing nothing. But there is opportunities out there if people apply themselves and just go for it. When someone told me about opportunities in Tech, I had the same reaction. Though there is no way I could change careers and make so much to start but yeah I made it happen.

[co-joe]

Funny that it was a Paramedic making that suggestion, my last Air Ambulance job the EMTs made 75k, Captains made 80K, and Paramedics made 140K. EMT is a 6 week course. Because of the overtime structure at AB health, and the fact that pilots got straight salary, Captains and FOs were the lowest paid people in the whole operation.

[tbaylx]

Besides pay there are very few jobs where you get as much time off as a pilot either.

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

TAFB is not an indicator of how many days off you have in the month. You don't get paid an hourly rate for sleeping in a bed in a hotel because you're away. Plenty of other careers require conferences or travel from home.

In that schedule where you gross 20K how many days off do you have at home? I suspect quite a few more than the average employee and most other industries

[altiplano]

Besides pay there are very few jobs where you get as much time off as a pilot either.

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

TAFB is not an indicator of how many days off you have in the month. You don't get paid an hourly rate for sleeping in a bed in a hotel because you're away. Plenty of other careers require conferences or travel from home.

In that schedule where you gross 20K how many days off do you have at home? I suspect quite a few more than the average employee and most other industries

It's time at work. Period.

Sure maybe I can line up more days off in a row than the average Joe, but irregular schedules, early mornings, late nights, lost nights, long duty days, travel fatigue, half the time at home is recovery or getting ready to go again.

Downplaying the sacrifice of this profession because your think I get more days off than Joe and he goes to a couple conferences a year is disrespectful. Not too mention those 75 hour weeks were full work weeks in my career not too long ago.

I bet paramedics and firefighters get more days off than me and are paid their full rate when they're sleeping in their company provided bed.

[tbaylx]

What?

I'll be away at work almost 300 hours this month.

75 hours a week.

Almost double your 9-5er.

I'll gross around 20K.

What's that?

$65/hr...

TAFB is not an indicator of how many days off you have in the month. You don't get paid an hourly rate for sleeping in a bed in a hotel because you're away. Plenty of other careers require conferences or travel from home.

In that schedule where you gross 20K how many days off do you have at home? I suspect quite a few more than the average employee and most other industries

It's time at work. Period.

Sure maybe I can line up more days off in a row than the average Joe, but irregular schedules, early mornings, late nights, lost nights, long duty days, travel fatigue, half the time at home is recovery or getting ready to go again.

Downplaying the sacrifice of this profession because your think I get more days off than Joe and he goes to a couple conferences a year is disrespectful. Not too mention those 75 hour weeks were full work weeks in my career not too long ago.

I bet paramedics and firefighters get more days off than me and are paid their full rate when they're sleeping in their company provided bed.

Altiplano,

Oil patch workers, truckers, shift workers in all industries have these challenges. None of them are paid when not at work as part of their hourly workweek regardless of if they are in a hotel away from home or not.

If you feel disrespected by that or think that pilots are somehow special or different because of these challenges then probably not worth continuing the conversation. Making 20K a month gross means you make more than almost 99% of all other Canadians.

The facts are that other professions with similar challenges tend to get fewer days away off and are paid considerably less than pilots. There are examples of low wages in the aviation industry but that doesn't change the fact that pilots are generally well compensated at 705 levels with more time off than most other careers that share similar challenges.

[Handover]

Altiplano,

Oil patch workers, truckers, shift workers in all industries have these challenges. None of them are paid when not at work as part of their hourly workweek regardless of if they are in a hotel away from home or not.

If you feel disrespected by that or think that pilots are somehow special or different because of these challenges then probably not worth continuing the conversation. Making 20K a month gross means you make more than almost 99% of all other Canadians.

The facts are that other professions with similar challenges tend to get fewer days away off and are paid considerably less than pilots. There are examples of low wages in the aviation industry but that doesn't change the fact that pilots are generally well compensated at 705 levels with more time off than most other careers that share similar challenges.

tbaylx / CP Flair

This is my second career - I have been flying for 15 years professionally now and am still earning less than I was 30 years ago as a fresh graduate. Your 20k a month is still a very slim sliver of the entire industry. Most do not come anywhere near this. Taking the top layer and using that as an example is silly.

The fact remains that Canada - regardless of what industry pays less than most other western countries but is still one of the most expensive to live in.

The issue is beyond just aviation - but regardless of the argument as to the causes, there should be no reason why there is a large discrepancy between Canada and the US - or even NZ and Australia that have far smaller aviation sectors and are just as expensive to live.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Pilot WAWCON has been coming up lots lately.

I got into a debate with a friend who works as a paramedic in Canada.

The topic of our respective wages came up- They top out at 98,000 ( roughly)

I compared their top wage to Canadian regional captain wages topping out at around 165,000.

The individuals opinion was that the fact that we complain about our pay was laughable bordering on narcissistic .. nevermind American pilot salaries. They referred to US pay scales as “ bloated” ( along with our pay scales)..

I also discussed FO salaries in Canada and these wages were also deemed acceptable/ overly high at both the regional and mainline levels. They did a acknowledge that 40,000 is not that viable but commensurate with experience.

I also brought up mainline FO wages .. these were also commensurate with experience as well. Mainline WB Captain wages were deemed bloated and excessive.


Obviously my opinion is different …


Here’s why:

-time it takes to climb to the top wage brackets
-long tenures as rampies / dockhands
-Challenging ( at best) entry level jobs in the bush etc
-time away from home
-comparatively low hourly wage when airport time / time away from home is factored in.
-studies showing high altitude flying can lead to cancer
-degree of responsibility..
-consequences of a screw up at far higher and have a potential loss of life that could be massive.
-education cost.
-job security issues



Here’s the supporting arguments for why our wages could be deemed as overly high.

-both require recurrent training
-both require technical skills
-both careers can lead of loss of life If a mistake is made
-both work long hours
-both may live in a major center ( high cost of living)
-education cost
-non- adherence to policies and procedures can lead to loss of life.
-both are trades and don’t require college education.


What your opinion? Are we being “entitled babies” and do we need a reality check?

My opinion is that both careers are under paid.

Absolutely underpaid. The top salary takes many many many years of garbage wages and it’s a slow miserable grind to that point. Paramedics make more throughout their careers as they climb early on and max out way faster. Canadas aviation sector pays half of anything offered in the USA and even less in some European countries. It’s a training ground for the rest of the world, that’s it’s only benefit