kiaszceski wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 11:16 am
Interesting, so those DEC new hires may be in a stressful situation if they don’t pass the training… command course is a another story compared to a Fo training and lineindoc.
There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment
Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
There has already been at least one failed out DEC, said person was not given a FO spot, terminated upon failure of PIC assessment
Are you talking about the ~2000 hour instructor?
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
cdnavater wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 5:42 pm
Not going to answer the who but suffice to say, the language in our contract basically states if you fail the upgrade you can go back to your previous position. Of the street was their previous position, what remains to be seen is whether all DEC failures suffer the same fate. I’ve heard the one who was fired did not present well at the meeting after the fact.
This being said, I also have heard that the company has to consider termination for a failed DEC, choices have consequences and if every candidate who fails gets to go to the right seat, everyone will just “give er a go” and those costs add up
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
I don't understand why we would let go guys who failed DEC.. unless their entire training didn't go well
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
Ok, fair enough. Keeping that in mind, isn't the part of the ground school talking about systems identical though?
If you fail the DEC applicant, you have to hire and train a new one.
If you move the DEC over to an FO training course, that should take less time than a full new FO course, no? Ground school mostly the same, already spent time in the sim, albeit in the wrong seat. If the company is willing, it should be possible to do that quicker.
Sounds like it is more of a 'sending a message' kind of thing.
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
Ok, fair enough. Keeping that in mind, isn't the part of the ground school talking about systems identical though?
If you fail the DEC applicant, you have to hire and train a new one.
If you move the DEC over to an FO training course, that should take less time than a full new FO course, no? Ground school mostly the same, already spent time in the sim, albeit in the wrong seat. If the company is willing, it should be possible to do that quicker.
Sounds like it is more of a 'sending a message' kind of thing.
Exactly, the message is, don’t waste our time if you are not ready. Problem is, with a bare ATPL, they don’t know what they don’t know.
Did you not read what I wrote? Choices have consequences, if not everyone will just bid DEC with FO as a back up.
It’s not just simply you failed the PIC and tomorrow you do an FO PPC. all the training was done in the left seat, so now how much has to be repeated for the right seat is unknown, it’s uncharted territory.
I do imagine how humble you are when you show up to the review board will have some effect on the outcome.
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
This comment doesn’t make any sense.
Training to CA levels means you must also be aware of the FO flows and calls.
If you fail out of left seat training, the best solution (in my opinion) would be a set of differences trainers then finish the course as an FO. You would not need to redo the full course when you downgrade.
The example above feels to me like the individual got themselves fired for other reasons than just failing the training.
Makes significantly more sense to have a DEC who is struggling, go right seat to learn the plane and Ops then try again. I guarantee if the motivation is there they’ll be able to do a command course before 12 months and still be considered an upgradable asset in Jazzes eyes.
Why would jazz want to make an already difficult situation with lack of captains even more difficult by firing new hires who are trying to become direct entry captains?
digits_ wrote: ↑Sun Oct 09, 2022 6:54 pm
The plane doesn't change just because you have to change seats...
The flows do, all the muscle memory for the right hand now has to be relearned on the left plus a couple FO only flows. Captain calls for a rejected T/O, now you’re an FO having never done a reject from the right, F/O duties for CAT III, just a couple examples of missed training items, I’m sure there are more.
Would be different if you were paired up Capt/Capt for the initial training but there are some issues besides the biggest one being, you have an ATPL, doesn’t mean you are ready for this challenge, the smart guys with 3000 plus hours are bidding right seat and learning the aircraft and environment before bidding left.
That’s my recommendation, the company also feels this way since termination is so far what’s happening for failed DEC.
This comment doesn’t make any sense.
Training to CA levels means you must also be aware of the FO flows and calls.
If you fail out of left seat training, the best solution (in my opinion) would be a set of differences trainers then finish the course as an FO. You would not need to redo the full course when you downgrade.
The example above feels to me like the individual got themselves fired for other reasons than just failing the training.
Makes significantly more sense to have a DEC who is struggling, go right seat to learn the plane and Ops then try again. I guarantee if the motivation is there they’ll be able to do a command course before 12 months and still be considered an upgradable asset in Jazzes eyes.
Why would jazz want to make an already difficult situation with lack of captains even more difficult by firing new hires who are trying to become direct entry captains?
Jazz has to give an official communication about what would happen to DEC if they fail, is it going to be a termination for all of them or on a case-by-case basis?
If they fail out as DEC would make more sense to leave jazz for another company. If they meet DEC qualifications could be make quite a bit more elsewhere as an FO.
I'm late to the party and just taking a skim of all this now, and I can't wrap my head around this whole proposal.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Jazz says they have to pause flow because of a growing shortage of qualified pilots.
AC realizes they can't attract the OTS they need because of the flat pay scenario.
AC decides to rectify their own company recruitment problem by upping the initial pay, but decide that they can take the money they'll expend from the pilot group in terms of concessions?
What?? This sounds like a company problem, not a pilot problem, no?
DanWEC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:06 pm
I'm late to the party and just taking a skim of all this now, and I can't wrap my head around this whole proposal.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Jazz says they have to pause flow because of a growing shortage of qualified pilots.
AC realizes they can't attract the OTS they need because of the flat pay scenario.
AC decides to rectify their own company recruitment problem by upping the initial pay, but decide that they can take the money they'll expend from the pilot group in terms of concessions?
What?? This sounds like a company problem, not a pilot problem, no?
DanWEC wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 1:06 pm
I'm late to the party and just taking a skim of all this now, and I can't wrap my head around this whole proposal.
Correct me if I'm wrong:
Jazz says they have to pause flow because of a growing shortage of qualified pilots.
AC realizes they can't attract the OTS they need because of the flat pay scenario.
AC decides to rectify their own company recruitment problem by upping the initial pay, but decide that they can take the money they'll expend from the pilot group in terms of concessions?
What?? This sounds like a company problem, not a pilot problem, no?
Sadly some don't seem to see it that way, particularly the "establishment" at ACPA, we'll see tomorrow how many of the rest managed to put it together.
Aspiredtofly wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 11:46 pm
Real question is what would happen if the vote turned out to be no by tommorow?
Then AC needs to find another solution to meet its commitments regarding flow from Jazz and hiring/training at AC.
Those problems and commitments don’t change after a no vote.
An across the board inflation hike and make all the concessions temporary. It would pass.
It’s up to AC if they truly want to run their sked next summer. They are getting very close to having a disgruntled pilot group going into next summer anyway.
They can also cut next summers schedule. Totally up to them.
Tough to explain to the BOD and shareholders that we are cutting our schedule next summer to avoid paying pilots more than now, but still far less than international competition.
This no vote, should it happen, has nothing to do with anti Jazz or anti flow from Jazz.
AC has a commitment to Jazz for flow and will have to figure it out.
AC needs to negotiate with Jazz regarding this shortage as well.
ACPA should not have deleverage Jazz in this MOA with a scope change.
This is a very anti unity within the pilot group deal. It needs to be thrown into the lav. The ACPA MEC changes to pro ALPA come January. The company and the old ACPA supporters are just trying to push through crap while they can.
It's not just the potential scope ammendments that will de-leverage Jazz. The whole 'reserved mainline seniority while you continue to work at Jazz for 15 months' is even more de-leveraging to Jazz. If this vote fails and the company decides to come back with another offer, I'd love to believe that ACPA would insist on changes to the Jazz piece( obviously after and in addition to better mainline compensation and temporary rather than permanent mainline CBA changes) to help their brothers and sisters at Jazz out. But seeing how the Jazz MEC was not consulted on the original incarnation of this offer, I wont hold my breath
